On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:53:46 -0400, NotNow wrote:

JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:

wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.

THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...

You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:

??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?

Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?

??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?

some lines snipped...

5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.

Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
No.

What do you mean, what is this group of people if not a "panel"? Read
this again...

(IV) is guided by a "coalition of stake
holders" (panel) includes representatives from emergency
medical services" (panel), "emergency department physicians or nurses"
(panel), state long-term care association, state medical association,
"state surveyors" (STATE SURVEYERS??? Yikes! sounds like a "panel" of
folks who are not interested in you),
agency responsible for senior services, state department of health,
state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association. (Panel, panel, panel. And most of 'em
have never even met you before!!!) Read the words, it is a
panel...Period, end of story..

It DAMNED sure isn't a "death panel".

Suppose the "...order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar
order" says, "Stop the treatment."

Does that not constitute an order for 'death'. What the hell would you
call a panel that issues such an order....a 'Life Panel'?

Loogy, these guys are crafting a bill which will affect the life of
your daughter's father. Now wake the hell up!
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:25:56 -0400, NotNow wrote:

JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.

THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...

You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming
from the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read
that part.
All is fair in love, war and politics. If you can't stomach the fight
then go home.
Oh, so you condone your party's lies? More and more Republicans are
coming out saying they want their party to stop that nonsense. It makes
them look stupid for one thing. And the people who believe those lies
then have to save face somehow.
You mean like saying you landed in a hot zone and ran for cover, or
saying the CIA lied, or saying the old folks fighting against health
care reform were carrying swasticka's? Oh wait... forget it...

Yes, a lie is a lie. BUT, you didn't answer the question!

Ok, I will guess the question is about death panels.. The panels of
uninvolved strangers from the government shouldn't be refered to as
"Death Panels"... They should be called "Politically correct timely
demise panels"...

Panels are panels. Call them what you will. A name simply identifies
something, you call it a planning panel, I call it a Politically correct
timely demise panel.. Tomato, Tomato. It is still a panel of uninvolved
strangers who will be looking at paperwork and providing suggestions
based on Government "Guidelines" as they will be folks who answer to the
Government, not a doctor, financial advisor, family, guardian, durable
power of atty, or lawyer that knows you and should the ones helping you
make those decisions...


BULL****! They aren't providing ANY "suggestions" based on anything. And
it IS done by the doctor's liasons.
ALL it does is require Medicare to OFFER counseling. The planning is
nothing more, nothing less than thinking ahead about the treatment you'd
like to receive at the end of your life. He

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/fal...anasia-claims/

You need to read for yourself, NOT rely on the lies being told by the right.

Again, go read the damn bill.

"hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con
8sultation between the individual and a practitioner de
9scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:

13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad
14vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo
16ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad
18....and so on.

Note the word 'shall' in line 12. Shall is simply a nice way of saying
'is hereby ordered to'.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

In article ,
says...

JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:

wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.

THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...

You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:

??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?

Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?

??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?

some lines snipped...

5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.

Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
No.
What do you mean, what is this group of people if not a "panel"? Read
this again...

(IV) is guided by a "coalition of stake
holders" (panel) includes representatives from emergency
medical services" (panel), "emergency department physicians or nurses"
(panel), state long-term care association, state medical association,
"state surveyors" (STATE SURVEYERS??? Yikes! sounds like a "panel" of
folks who are not interested in you),
agency responsible for senior services, state department of health,
state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association. (Panel, panel, panel. And most of 'em
have never even met you before!!!) Read the words, it is a
panel...Period, end of story..

It DAMNED sure isn't a "death panel".

If you look above about 20 or so lines you will see I never said
"Death" panel. I asked if it was a "panel" you said "no"... It is a
panel of strangers who should not be involved in your personal
decisions... PANEL.. That's what I said.... never said death...
mutter...


But what everyone is losing track of, because of the lies perpetuated,
is that the end of life counseling is completely 100% voluntary.

Yes, and paid for by the Government and representing the Government all
at the same time, with no real funding for "opposing" viewpoints... It
will be like Planned Parenthood, one view, and only one view...

--
Wafa free since 2009

In article ,
says...

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:53:46 -0400, NotNow wrote:

JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:

wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.

THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...

You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:

??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?

Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?

??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?

some lines snipped...

5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.

Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
No.

What do you mean, what is this group of people if not a "panel"? Read
this again...

(IV) is guided by a "coalition of stake
holders" (panel) includes representatives from emergency
medical services" (panel), "emergency department physicians or nurses"
(panel), state long-term care association, state medical association,
"state surveyors" (STATE SURVEYERS??? Yikes! sounds like a "panel" of
folks who are not interested in you),
agency responsible for senior services, state department of health,
state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association. (Panel, panel, panel. And most of 'em
have never even met you before!!!) Read the words, it is a
panel...Period, end of story..

It DAMNED sure isn't a "death panel".

Suppose the "...order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar
order" says, "Stop the treatment."

Does that not constitute an order for 'death'. What the hell would you
call a panel that issues such an order....a 'Life Panel'?

Loogy, these guys are crafting a bill which will affect the life of
your daughter's father. Now wake the hell up!

It was interesting to hear Obama talk about an "end of life" panel...
Guess that's different than a "death" panel... as we all know end of
life doesn't necessarily mean death, does it??? Sorry, just had to ask

--
Wafa free since 2009

JustWait wrote:


But what everyone is losing track of, because of the lies perpetuated,
is that the end of life counseling is completely 100% voluntary.

Yes, and paid for by the Government and representing the Government all
at the same time, with no real funding for "opposing" viewpoints... It
will be like Planned Parenthood, one view, and only one view...


Since you are an uneducated little ****, Scott, you have no idea what
might be presented at one of these counseling sessions.

Frankly, you come across as someone who might need one of these
counseling sessions soon, and are scared everyone in your family and the
counselor will recommend you jump off a bridge into the abyss.

JLH LXV wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:32:47 -0400, JustWait
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 5:53 pm, JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...





On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.
THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...
You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:
??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?
Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?
??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?
some lines snipped...
5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.
Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
Yup... It is what it is. Hey, if they like the bill they should admit
what it is and support it. Don't look at the word "black" on the paper
and call it "white"... Either way, gotta' go do the pool...

i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying but
they oppose any effort to do so.
Do you really believe that the friends and relatives of right wing
folks don't die?

Gosh, I could have sworn both my mother, father, and first wife had
died, after several months or years of illness.

I suppose I was wrong.



You are sounding more like Harry by the day. That comment above sounds
like something he'd say. Do you also equate killing babies with
executing murderers?
Just plonked the guy.. He is worse than harry, with the name calling and
out of context bull****...

Yeah but he gave us a quote worth repeating:

"i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying
but they oppose any effort to do so. '

Right wingers' friends and relatives don't die, you know. This guy is
giving Donnie a run for his money, and I don't think this guy is just
pretending.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

That guy's statement is borderline retarded!

JLH LXV wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:06:43 -0400, NotNow wrote:

JLH LXV wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 5:13 pm, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.
THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...
You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:

‘‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that—

Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?

‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that—

some lines snipped...

5 ‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.

Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
i was a hospice volunteer for years. the level of instruction people
get at the end of their lives is pathetic and only the right
wing...which hates the human race...would oppose providing these
people with support
Not to be too obvious, but if you were the volunteer, what the hell
kind of pathetic advice were you giving them?

Besides, once an individual is in a hospice haven't the difficult
decisions been already made? They were in my mother's case.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
And the insults start....

What insult?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
"Pathetic advice". You don't know what kind of advice he was giving.

JLH LXV wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:53:46 -0400, NotNow wrote:

JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...
JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:

wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.

THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...

You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:

??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?

Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?

??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?

some lines snipped...

5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.

Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.
No.
What do you mean, what is this group of people if not a "panel"? Read
this again...

(IV) is guided by a "coalition of stake
holders" (panel) includes representatives from emergency
medical services" (panel), "emergency department physicians or nurses"
(panel), state long-term care association, state medical association,
"state surveyors" (STATE SURVEYERS??? Yikes! sounds like a "panel" of
folks who are not interested in you),
agency responsible for senior services, state department of health,
state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association. (Panel, panel, panel. And most of 'em
have never even met you before!!!) Read the words, it is a
panel...Period, end of story..

It DAMNED sure isn't a "death panel".

Suppose the "...order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar
order" says, "Stop the treatment."

There is no such thing. You're being misled by the right wing.

Does that not constitute an order for 'death'. What the hell would you
call a panel that issues such an order....a 'Life Panel'?

Again, it's a fallacy.

"Page 425 does deal with counseling sessions for seniors, but it is far
from recommending a "Logan’s Run" approach to Medicare spending. In
fact, it requires Medicare to cover counseling sessions for seniors who
want to consider their end-of-life choices – including whether they want
to refuse or, conversely, require certain types of care. The claim that
the bill would "push suicide" is a falsehood."

Loogy, these guys are crafting a bill which will affect the life of
your daughter's father. Now wake the hell up!
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

About the same time that you wake up and realize that your side is lying
to you, and to America. IF you read it carefully, you'll see that it is
up to the individual NOT a "death panel".

H.R. 3200, page 425: Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term
‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the
individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding
advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual
involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
consultation shall include the following:

(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning,
including key questions and considerations, important steps, and
suggested people to talk to.

(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including
living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities
of a health care proxy.

(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and
State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with
advance care planning … .

(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life
services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,
and benefits for such services and supports that are available under
this title.

(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life
sustaining treatment or similar orders … .

Where in hell in there does it say that a panel can decide whether you
get life support or not?

In article ,
says...

JLH LXV wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:32:47 -0400, JustWait
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 5:53 pm, JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...





On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.
THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...
You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:
??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?
Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?
??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?
some lines snipped...
5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.
Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
Yup... It is what it is. Hey, if they like the bill they should admit
what it is and support it. Don't look at the word "black" on the paper
and call it "white"... Either way, gotta' go do the pool...

i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying but
they oppose any effort to do so.
Do you really believe that the friends and relatives of right wing
folks don't die?

Gosh, I could have sworn both my mother, father, and first wife had
died, after several months or years of illness.

I suppose I was wrong.



You are sounding more like Harry by the day. That comment above sounds
like something he'd say. Do you also equate killing babies with
executing murderers?
Just plonked the guy.. He is worse than harry, with the name calling and
out of context bull****...

Yeah but he gave us a quote worth repeating:

"i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying
but they oppose any effort to do so. '

Right wingers' friends and relatives don't die, you know. This guy is
giving Donnie a run for his money, and I don't think this guy is just
pretending.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

That guy's statement is borderline retarded!

Which guy...??

--
Wafa free since 2009

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:34:11 -0400, JustWait
wrote:

In article ,
says...

JLH LXV wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:32:47 -0400, JustWait
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:

On Aug 13, 5:53 pm, JustWait wrote:
In article ,
says...





On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:42:14 -0400, NotNow wrote:
wf3h wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:28 am, JLH wrote:
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:22:21 -0700 (PDT), wf3h
wrote:
On Aug 13, 7:13 am, JLH wrote:
Well, I'm part owner of a couple, and I don't consider myself
'wealthy' (in the material sense, that is).
--
yeah so am i. i own about 10 shares of goldman sachs in my 401k
portfolio. big shwoop.
Then quit ****ing and moaning about the owners being wealthy (in the
material sense, of course).
ROFLMAO!! why? do you think that having had the big boys raid my 401k
to maintain their lifestyles makes me rich? you right wingers have
quite an imagination.
Oh, and quit calling names and hurling personal insults. They don't
help your arguments. Krause has been doing it for years. Hasn't helped
him at all.
--
?? now let's see...the right invents lies such as obama putting people
in concentration camps, forming death panels, etc.
THEN when they get called on it, they moan they're being treated
unfairly...
You are correct! The lies about the death panel crap that is coming from
the right is dishonest, and they know it, that is IF they read that part.
From page 429:
??(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ??(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ??(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ?order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment? means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that?
Note line 10. Pretty scary, huh? Why is this here?
??(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that?
some lines snipped...
5 ??(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake
6holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.
Sure sounds like a panel, doesn't it?
Yup... It is what it is. Hey, if they like the bill they should admit
what it is and support it. Don't look at the word "black" on the paper
and call it "white"... Either way, gotta' go do the pool...

i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying but
they oppose any effort to do so.
Do you really believe that the friends and relatives of right wing
folks don't die?

Gosh, I could have sworn both my mother, father, and first wife had
died, after several months or years of illness.

I suppose I was wrong.



You are sounding more like Harry by the day. That comment above sounds
like something he'd say. Do you also equate killing babies with
executing murderers?
Just plonked the guy.. He is worse than harry, with the name calling and
out of context bull****...

Yeah but he gave us a quote worth repeating:

"i laugh at the right wing. they've never had to care for the dying
but they oppose any effort to do so. '

Right wingers' friends and relatives don't die, you know. This guy is
giving Donnie a run for his money, and I don't think this guy is just
pretending.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.

That guy's statement is borderline retarded!

Which guy...??

wf3h, or whatever his 'call sign' is.
--
John H

All decisions, even those made by liberals, are the result of binary thinking.