NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years,
the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global
basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that
the global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has
warmed significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a
reality. Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent
years, the 1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a
global basis, of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It
appears that the global warming of the last century is
unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age
500 years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the
past. We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the
right's insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.

Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:


When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.

Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.


Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

Global warming was occuring. Average Temps have gone down the last 9 years.
Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact that global
warming is man caused. Average temperature on Mars has changed in line with
Earths temperature variations. The problem is that unmitigated,
researchable data has not proved man is the cause of temperature variations.
And we want to decimate the economy and people's lives for reasons that are
dreck.

NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data showing
regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather for a
little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time with
imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half of this
database has a very limited scope in relation to the total surface area
of the earth. There are still large area of the surface of the earth
(water and land) that have no data history for the temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they did
not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low highs
in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature we may
see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because of low
yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs that
it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been decreasing
BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The current that
comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland is colder and
stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying to
modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that control
it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation worse.) It
is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of dollars at a
situation that is not known nor understood.

On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 08:27:07 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

"Scott Highleyman and Marilyn Heiman are, respectively, the
international and American directors of the Arctic Program at the Pew
Environment Group."

What a shocker.

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon at
that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when the
republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to be
darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming just
isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the 1990s,
and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis, of the
last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the global
warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last 1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming. Earth
has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to cause the
last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500 years ago?
And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past. We
are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not enter
into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building for me.
You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses, strains,
etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd want me to
design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.



The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem,
not problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history
does not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped
the climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on
climate that is occuring right now?

Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:



If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades'
temperatures, don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to
compare today's temperature, so it can not be increasing

Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

There is some data showing regional warming. There is some data showing
regional cooling. We have been collecting data on the weather for a
little more than two hundred years. Probably half of this time with
imprecise equipment and poor sampling techniques. The first half of this
database has a very limited scope in relation to the total surface area
of the earth. There are still large area of the surface of the earth
(water and land) that have no data history for the temperature.

Based on this small sampling of data there are some privative computer
models that have been developed that based on this small data pool
project the numbers forward and show a warming trend. However they did
not predict the cooling that has been experienced in the current
century. They can not accurately predict the weather from day to day.
(We have record high temperatures in the western US and record low highs
in the Midwestern US. In fact because of these low temperature we may
see increases in alcohol (gasoline), and various foods because of low
yields.)

If you get passed the politics and look at the data being generated,
there are signs that the world is warming, but there are also signs that
it is cooling. The ice on one side of the antarctic has been decreasing
BUT the ice on the other side has been increasing. The current that
comes out of the Arctic down the west side of Greenland is colder and
stronger after weakening in the late 1900's

Archeology, paleontology and other long term sciences have shown that
global warming is a cyclic phenomena, with cycles 100000 years or more
in length. There are too many variables, and the cycles too long, to
make any accurate prediction from the limited data set we currently
have. There is definitely too little data available to start trying to
modify the weather when we don't know all of the variables that control
it. (If we do something wrong we could make a bad situation worse.) It
is absolutely too early to start throwing trillions of dollars at a
situation that is not known nor understood.

I fully understand that there is a cyclic element to the problem. BUT,
you can not deny data that shows that air pollution has corresponded
perfectly with the warming trend that we are now seeing. That has only
occurred before with super volcano events. Anyone who just shoves good
data under the rug because it doesn't meet their current ideology just
isn't very good at science.

Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Keith Nuttle wrote:
NotNow wrote:
Calif Bill wrote:
When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.

Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.
If the past does not matter you have no basis to say there is global
warming. Yesterday, last week, last year, last decades' temperatures,
don't exist therefore there are no temperatures to compare today's
temperature, so it can not be increasing
Do this. Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact
that global warming isn't occurring.

Global warming was occuring. Average Temps have gone down the last 9 years.
Show me unmitigated, researchable data that proves for a fact that global
warming is man caused. Average temperature on Mars has changed in line with
Earths temperature variations. The problem is that unmitigated,
researchable data has not proved man is the cause of temperature variations.
And we want to decimate the economy and people's lives for reasons that are
dreck.



Your statement that average temperatures on the earth have gone down in
the last 9 years is rubbish.

Look:
http://climateprogress.org/2008/09/0...st-2000-years/

"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"NotNow" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
NotNow wrote:
BAR wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
Ran across this after seeing an article in boattest about a guy
with a
Nordhavn doing the trip Atlantic to Pacific.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...y/1620336.html

Weird when you consider the travails of Franklin and Amundsen.
If the passage gets going good it could affect Panama Canal
revenues.
You could see the Chinese jump on the Global Warming band wagon
at that point.
I wonder how the passage is getting "increasingly ice free" when
the republican politicians are forcing everyone in their party to
be darned near militant in telling everyone that global warming
just isn't happening despite all of the data proving otherwise?
Where is the peer reviewed data.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

http://wdc.cricyt.edu.ar/paleo/globalwarming/end.html
Which states in part:

When one reviews all the data, both from thermometers and
paleotemperature proxies, it becomes clear that the Earth has warmed
significantly over the last 140 years; Global Warming is a reality.
Multiple paleoclimatic studies indicate that recent years, the
1990s, and the 20th century are all the warmest, on a global basis,
of the last 600, and most likely 1200 years. It appears that the
global warming of the last century is unprecedented in the last
1,200 years.
The peer review does not address man causes for global warming.
Earth has heated and cooled for it whole life. What did man do to
cause the last Ice Age about 15,000 years ago? The mini ice age 500
years ago? And the warming afterwards?
It does not matter what has happened and how it happened in the past.
We are talking about the CURRENT situation. That's why the right's
insistence that it isn't man made is non-think.
Now the past does not matter in global warming and history does not
enter into science. I am not sure I want you engineering a building
for me. You would ignore codes, etc as they are based on history.
Uh, no not really. Codes are based on known strengths, stresses,
strains, etc. And you use the CURRENT code. Using your analogy, you'd
want me to design by a standard that was a few million years old.

Nope, what I said if history did not matter. You would be designing to
codes at are as first written. They would not be changed because of
history. Exactly the opposite of what you stated.

The problem here is simple. *I* was talking about a specific problem, not
problems in general. As far as the topic I was discussing, history does
not matter. Why? Simple. Because the cataclysmic events that shaped the
climate at a given point in time doesn't matter anymore. What does a
history that involves things like super volcanoes, giant meteors hitting
earth, etc. have to do with man made pollution and it's affects on climate
that is occuring right now?

It is the sun spots, etc that matter. Not the couple of extreme events.