Gun saves another day
 

Seattle sound engineer fatally shot as he tried to enter wrong motel
room

By Nick Perry Seattle Times staff reporter

More details emerged Sunday in the bizarre shooting death of renowned
local sound engineer Tom Pfaeffle.

Pfaeffle, 49, who had worked with music groups that include Nirvana,
The Black Crowes and Heart, owned and operated The Tank, a recording
studio adjacent to his home in the woods of Black Diamond. He also
worked as an instructor at the Art Institute of Seattle, teaching
audio production.

He is survived by a wife and four children.

Pfaeffle was killed Friday at the Blue Spruce Motel in Twisp. Twisp
Police Chief Rick Balam said Pfaeffle and his wife were in town to
attend a birthday party when it appeared the couple inadvertently
returned to the wrong room at about 10:40 p.m.

Pfaeffle apparently was trying to put his key into Unit 7 when a man
inside shot at him, the chief said.

Pfaeffle and his wife managed to retreat and take cover behind a car
in the parking lot, Balam said. Emergency crews later took Pfaeffle to
the Mid-Valley Hospital in Omak, where he died about two hours after
the shooting.

Balam said the shooter also fired a bullet that nearly hit a man in
adjacent Unit 6. That bullet tore through the wall and a mirror.

A man in his late 70s was lying on his bed at the time, reading a
newspaper with the television on, the police chief said. He was
injured from falling debris, suffering a black eye.

When Balam arrived, he was able to speak to the suspect, a 57-year-old
Seattle man, by phoning him from the manager's office. Balam said he
was quickly able to persuade the man to leave his unit and surrender.

The man is to be arraigned today on charges of second-degree murder
and assault.

Balam said the man could not reasonably argue he was defending himself
against potential intruders: "He had a total disregard for human
safety," Balam said. "It's just crazy."

Family friend and Art Institute colleague Jim Rivers said Pfaeffle's
wife told him it took nearly two hours for an ambulance to arrive at
the remote town and get Pfaeffle to Omak. Rivers said Pfaeffle was
conscious and talking the whole time.

Rivers said his understanding is that one bullet struck Pfaeffle in
the arm, the other in his kidney and liver. Omak hospital staff were
preparing to airlift Pfaeffle to Spokane or Seattle when he died,
Rivers said, apparently due to the amount of blood he'd lost.

"He was one of the most honest, caring guys I know," Rivers said. "He
was a great dad. You just can't believe that this happened to him."

Steve Barsotti, the academic director of the Art Institute's audio
program, said Pfaeffle was an intense, driven man who essentially
worked two full-time jobs.

"He had the utmost respect from all of his students," Barsotti said.
"He earned his respect day to day, in the way he treated his students,
his complete control over the content of the program and his
professionalism."

Barsotti said Pfaeffle also was a great cook who loved to make sushi.
He would sometimes unwind by playing guitar.

"He never sat still," Barsotti said. "He never stopped learning."

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!
--

John H

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!

Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:20:38 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/gesg2

pffffft

http://tinyurl.com/dodrm

--Vic

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!

Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic

Use a bow for that.

http://videos.komando.com/2009/07/21/
--

John H

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:51:32 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!

Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic

Use a bow for that.

http://videos.komando.com/2009/07/21/

He's a natural. Know how that feels.
When I was a kid I could kill flies on the wing from ten feet - with
the rubber bands I used on my paper route.
From 10-20 feet the fly had be lit. Rubber band ballistics.
Limits the killing power at range.
Some kind of hand/eye coordination I think they call it.
Amazed everybody.
Gave it up at about 14 - the family fame didn't suit me and I was
fearful of getting a big head about it.
Kept my modesty ever since, but I know you won't think I'm bragging or
something, so I don't mind telling you.

--Vic

Gun saves another day
 

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 21, 9:36*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:51:32 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:



On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!

Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. *Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic

Use a bow for that.

http://videos.komando.com/2009/07/21/

He's a natural. *Know how that feels.
When I was a kid I could kill flies on the wing from ten feet - with
the rubber bands I used on my paper route.
From 10-20 feet the fly had be lit. *Rubber band ballistics.
Limits the killing power at range.
Some kind of hand/eye coordination I think they call it.
Amazed everybody.
Gave it up at about 14 - the family fame didn't suit me and I was
fearful of getting a big head about it.
Kept my modesty ever since, but I know you won't think I'm bragging or
something, so I don't mind telling you.

--Vic

I bet this guy can 'nail' flies any day, any time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZS09fGEvws

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? One of them has survived.

Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.

He thought he had killed them both.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.

Gun saves another day
 

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? One of them has survived.

Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.

He thought he had killed them both.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.

Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:55:25 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? One of them has survived.

Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.

He thought he had killed them both.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.

Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.

Right. Cite please.

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:36:05 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:51:32 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886

That makes the point, doesn't it!

Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic

Use a bow for that.

http://videos.komando.com/2009/07/21/

He's a natural. Know how that feels.
When I was a kid I could kill flies on the wing from ten feet - with
the rubber bands I used on my paper route.
From 10-20 feet the fly had be lit. Rubber band ballistics.
Limits the killing power at range.
Some kind of hand/eye coordination I think they call it.
Amazed everybody.
Gave it up at about 14 - the family fame didn't suit me and I was
fearful of getting a big head about it.
Kept my modesty ever since, but I know you won't think I'm bragging or
something, so I don't mind telling you.

--Vic

Your initials are not HK. I've no problem with VS stories.
--

John H

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Damn shame one of the women didn't get a pistol from under the pillow
and blow his ass away.

Then jps could have something to whine about.

--

John H

Gun saves another day
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:51:32 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:08:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:24:33 -0400, Lil' John
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:19:04 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:57:50 -0700, jps wrote:

http://www.ubersite.com/m/18886
That makes the point, doesn't it!
Yeah, that a gun works a hell of lot better killing somebody through a
door or wall. Or from across the street for that matter.

--Vic
Use a bow for that.

http://videos.komando.com/2009/07/21/

He's a natural. Know how that feels.
When I was a kid I could kill flies on the wing from ten feet - with
the rubber bands I used on my paper route.
From 10-20 feet the fly had be lit. Rubber band ballistics.
Limits the killing power at range.
Some kind of hand/eye coordination I think they call it.
Amazed everybody.
Gave it up at about 14 - the family fame didn't suit me and I was
fearful of getting a big head about it.
Kept my modesty ever since, but I know you won't think I'm bragging or
something, so I don't mind telling you.

--Vic

We were great with slingshots... I could take out a golf ball sized
target from 50 feet and my ex wife was even better...

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 22, 12:01*am, jps wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? *One of them has survived.

Here more than one survived

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12753608

Would that have happened with a gun? *Nope.

There was a gun used and more survived than were killed.

He thought he had killed them both.

He was wrong.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Even though you might be speaking from experience, it isn't
necessarily the case.

Glad he had a knife instead. *100% improvement on mortality rate.

You may be glad, but I'm sorry any of it happened.

Gun saves another day
 

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:38:28 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I bet this guy can 'nail' flies any day, any time.

I have some pet toads. You ought to see them nail crickets. Then there
is Boltcutter the snapping turtle. The entire head and neck snaps out
like the tongue of a toad or frog when it nails a goldfish or baby
mouse. Luckily for the flies, the anti-cat screens keep them away from
the toads.

Casady

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

Gun saves another day
 

Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.


B.S. Bravado.

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close in...


--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

Absolutely!

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

IF it were me, you'd be dead before you even got the gun out of the
holster.

Gun saves another day
 

Wizard of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

IF it were me, you'd be dead before you even got the gun out of the
holster.

Holster? Who would have a firearm in a holster when facing an old marine
with a knife?

No one your age is faster than a speeding bullet...or three.


--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

H the K wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.
Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

B.S. Bravado.

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight
and I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three
taps to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old
fart. You know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close in...


At one of my CCW classes the instructor demonstrated this. Nobody
could draw and fire an aimed shot before he got them, even from a
fannie pack, worn in front with your hand on the gun. The problem is
reaction time from the time you see the guy move until you start
moving. We are talking a fraction of a second here.
I suppose some of those cowboy action shooters can do this but they
train several hours a day ... and they know when it's coming.
I really do think he was trying to drum up business for his self
defense course since the answer was deflecting the knife, then
shooting the guy as demonstrated by his assistant.
My thought was if you are that good why do you need to shoot him? Just
take the knife away and stab him.


Note that I did not say "draw and fire..."

Note that I said "...holding my SIG X-5..."

If I were facing the situation as described, the pistol would be drawn,
and my finger would be on the trigger.

Never take a knife to a gun fight...good advice.

Harry, do you remember all those comments about those people with tiny
dicks that used handguns to compensate for their short-comings. By
jove, I think you were right. ;)


--
Reginald P. Smithers III, Esq.

This Newsgroup post is a natural product. The slight variations in
spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in
no way are to be considered flaws or defects

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

NotNow wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:53:04 -0400, H the K
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:13:23 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close
in...
At one of my CCW classes the instructor demonstrated this. Nobody
could draw and fire an aimed shot before he got them, even from a
fannie pack, worn in front with your hand on the gun. The problem is
reaction time from the time you see the guy move until you start
moving. We are talking a fraction of a second here.
I suppose some of those cowboy action shooters can do this but they
train several hours a day ... and they know when it's coming.
I really do think he was trying to drum up business for his self
defense course since the answer was deflecting the knife, then
shooting the guy as demonstrated by his assistant.
My thought was if you are that good why do you need to shoot him?
Just
take the knife away and stab him.
Note that I did not say "draw and fire..."

Note that I said "...holding my SIG X-5..."

If I were facing the situation as described, the pistol would be
drawn, and my finger would be on the trigger.

Never take a knife to a gun fight...good advice.

The flaw in that plan is it is illegal to draw your weapon until you
have an imminent threat of bodily harm. You can't just pull your gun
to scare someone, just because you think they are hinkey, That is
"brandishing" a crime itself.
Unless the guy is actually threatening you with the knife, you there
is not an imminent threat. As soon as there is, you might as well just
shoot him. (the other part of the lesson). You just have to be sure
you are right.
Of course this is all moot in Maryland. If you shot a guy on the
street who was stabbing your wife at the time, they would throw you in
jail for the gun violation. It is virtually impossible to carry a
pistol legally in Md. Maryland is also a "retreat" state. You can't
even use deadly force to defend your home if there is any opportunity
to run away. (I know a guy who did time for that one)

1. Who said the gun would be drawn to scare someone? You're adding
all sorts of "value" to the posit here.

You said the gun would be in your hand "with your finger on the
trigger (another serious violation of proper gun handling)"

2. In Maryland, if you have a conceal-carry permit and you are
walking along with your wife and The Freak comes out of an alley and
stabs here, you are not going to go to jail for defending your wife
or yourself. You certainly do need a permit in Maryland to carry.

... and mere mortals can't really get one. Do you have one?


3. I am more than willing to take my chances with the legal system by
blowing away a home invader. There are more holes in the concept of
"retreat" than in a circle of Swiss cheese. "I retreated to the
garage but The Freak followed me in there, brandishing his machete,
so I shot his head clean off." "The Freak chased me around the second
floor of our house, I jumped through a window and he followed...so I
shot him six times..." And so forth.

Be careful with perjury, you might make a bad situation worse if they
prove you lied.

OK here is what transpired at my friend's trial.

"would have been possible for you to run next door and call the
police"

"I might have been able to"
"but you chose to stay there and kill a man"

It went down hill from there.

This did not involve a weapon either. One punch to the throat.
They said that since he was a Recon Marine his body was a weapon.
There was also some "baby killer"sentiment there too since this was
right at the end of Vietnam and the female prosecutor hammered at the
Marine thing. (What was your training, have you ever killed anyone
with your bare hands before etc) It made me sick.

It was a chilling lesson to a lot of us.

In close range fighting, Harry can have ten widdow capguns if wants, and
I'd still stomp his nasty fat ass into the ground. Guaranteed.

"widdew capguns" LOL...

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:01:34 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Wizard of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

IF it were me, you'd be dead before you even got the gun out of the
holster.

Holster? Who would have a firearm in a holster when facing an old marine
with a knife?

No one your age is faster than a speeding bullet...or three.

Harry - there are so many flaws in your argument that it's useless to
even begin to discuss it.

I honestly hope for your sake that you never, ever have to pull your
gun out to face a threat because you'd fold like a two dollar
cardboard suitcase.

Gun saves another day
 

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:55:25 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? One of them has survived.

Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.

He thought he had killed them both.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.

Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.

Right. Cite please.

Look it up. Most gunshot victims survive. Startling is it not? I was
taught this is the military silent weapons course. A knife wound, and I am
not meaning the nicked your hand with the knife while cutting apples, causes
massive bleeding. You die before they get you stabilized.

Gun saves another day
 

Wizard of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:01:34 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Wizard of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.
IF it were me, you'd be dead before you even got the gun out of the
holster.
Holster? Who would have a firearm in a holster when facing an old marine
with a knife?

No one your age is faster than a speeding bullet...or three.

Harry - there are so many flaws in your argument that it's useless to
even begin to discuss it.

I honestly hope for your sake that you never, ever have to pull your
gun out to face a threat because you'd fold like a two dollar
cardboard suitcase.


That's right...I wasn't trained by...da marines.

Once again, "pulling" is not the same as having the pistol in one's
hand, finger on the trigger, pointing at a perp with a knife. Especially
an old perp who thinks he is a ninja.



--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

On 7/22/09 3:43 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:55:25 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi

Guess what? One of them has survived.

Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.

He thought he had killed them both.

Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.

Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.

Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.

Right. Cite please.

Look it up. Most gunshot victims survive. Startling is it not? I was
taught this is the military silent weapons course. A knife wound, and I am
not meaning the nicked your hand with the knife while cutting apples, causes
massive bleeding. You die before they get you stabilized.




I feel that way every time I cut myself shaving.

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 22, 11:09*am, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:



Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

B.S. Bravado.

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close in...

At one of my CCW classes the instructor demonstrated this. Nobody
could draw and fire an aimed shot before he got them, even from a
fannie pack, worn in front with your hand on the gun. The problem is
reaction time from the time you see the guy move until you start
moving. We are talking a fraction of a second here.
I suppose some of those cowboy action shooters can do this but they
train several hours a day *... and they know when it's coming.
I really do think he was trying to drum up business for his self
defense course since the answer was deflecting the knife, then
shooting the guy as demonstrated by his assistant.
My thought was if you are that good why do you need to shoot him? Just
take the knife away and stab him.

Behold Bob Munden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA

Gun saves another day
 

On 7/22/09 6:07 PM, Tim wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:09 am, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the
wrote:



Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

B.S. Bravado.

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close in...

At one of my CCW classes the instructor demonstrated this. Nobody
could draw and fire an aimed shot before he got them, even from a
fannie pack, worn in front with your hand on the gun. The problem is
reaction time from the time you see the guy move until you start
moving. We are talking a fraction of a second here.
I suppose some of those cowboy action shooters can do this but they
train several hours a day ... and they know when it's coming.
I really do think he was trying to drum up business for his self
defense course since the answer was deflecting the knife, then
shooting the guy as demonstrated by his assistant.
My thought was if you are that good why do you need to shoot him? Just
take the knife away and stab him.

Behold Bob Munden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA


Well, obviously Munden couldn't compete and win against SW "The Knife"
Tom, our aging ninja.


--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:53:47 -0700, jps penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:55:25 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:
|
|
|"jps" wrote in message
...
| On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
| wrote:
|
|just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.
|
|http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi
|
| Guess what? One of them has survived.
|
| Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.
|
| He thought he had killed them both.
|
| Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.
|
| Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.
|
|Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.
|
|Right. Cite please.

It is a debatable point with no clear answers.... and I think the
*real* answer lies in statistics garnered from countries where knives
are more prevalent than guns.

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1993...ives-00000.php

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

Gun saves another day
 

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.






--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

On 7/22/09 9:54 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.


I practice at a range used by cops, lots of cops, and some military
personnel, too. Once in a while, not often, I see a cop who knows how to
shoot, by which I mean he/she can put most of the rounds in a mag in the
"10" zone on a target at typical "combat" distances. Most of the cops
I've seen at the range are just terrible shots, which I take as meaning
they don't practice often or they don't care.

I'm aware of the vagaries of any situation. Other than the "fun" factor,
that's why I practice quite a bit at the range and other places where I
can shoot.

Here's a fellow firing an older P226, DA-SA. My X-5 is a P-226, but SA only.

http://politics.theatlantic.com/mt-42/mt-tb.cgi/12231

The last minute shows how quickly the pistol cycles. Lots of shots. My
mags hold 19 rounds, plus one in the pipe.

Oh...I've taken Sig's Close Quarter Operator's Course.





--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:11:59 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, jps wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:53:47 -0700, jps penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:55:25 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:
|
|
|"jps" wrote in message
om...
| On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Tim
| wrote:
|
|just today. the victim was from St. Louis Mo.
|
|http://www.seattlepi.com/local/40830...ml?source=mypi
|
| Guess what? One of them has survived.
|
| Would that have happened with a gun? Nope.
|
| He thought he had killed them both.
|
| Bullets to the head would have made it for sure.
|
| Glad he had a knife instead. 100% improvement on mortality rate.
|
|Much more likely to die from a knife wound than a gun shot.
|
|Right. Cite please.

It is a debatable point with no clear answers.... and I think the
*real* answer lies in statistics garnered from countries where knives
are more prevalent than guns.

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1993...ives-00000.php

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

From 5 feet or 10 feet it's a hell of a lot easier to immobilize a
person with a gun than a knife unless you're a circus performer.

Point the thing in the general direction and pull the trigger 3 or 4
times, you're bound to hit something.

Gun saves another day
 

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the K
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

We're talking about knives vs. guns. In the same circumstances, the
knife is going to be just as difficult to handle as a deadly weapon as
a gun.

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 22, 7:24*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:07:41 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:



On Jul 22, 11:09*am, wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:12:43 -0400, H the K
wrote:

Yogi of Woodstock wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:36:30 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

The fact that this study is flawed is found in the assertion "The
distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun
assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge
and block," which is ridiculously untrue.

For those with proper training, inside of about 10 feet, I'll take the
knife and you can have the gun. I'll never lose and you'll never see
the knife.

Ahem - without getting into specifics, you are absoutely 100% correct.

B.S. Bravado.

From 10 feet away, if someone came after me with a knife in a fight and
I were holding my SIG X-5, he'd be on the ground dying from three taps
to the chest. Especially if the guy with the knife were an old fart. You
know, a guy your age or Gene's age.

Closer than 10 feet, you're assuming the guy with the pistola is
standing around and waiting for the perp and his knife to close in...

At one of my CCW classes the instructor demonstrated this. Nobody
could draw and fire an aimed shot before he got them, even from a
fannie pack, worn in front with your hand on the gun. The problem is
reaction time from the time you see the guy move until you start
moving. We are talking a fraction of a second here.
I suppose some of those cowboy action shooters can do this but they
train several hours a day *... and they know when it's coming.
I really do think he was trying to drum up business for his self
defense course since the answer was deflecting the knife, then
shooting the guy as demonstrated by his assistant.
My thought was if you are that good why do you need to shoot him? Just
take the knife away and stab him.

Behold Bob Munden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0dYEjR-jA

That is one of those action shooters I was talking about.
If you started with his natural talent and *you shot 100,000 rounds a
year, you might be able to do that too.
I knew a natural skeet shooter when I was with the IBM Skeet League
who could do amazing things with a shotgun but I didn't confuse that
with the other 80 shooters there.

You mean like Tim Bradley?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYUn2jMQfuA