Gun saves another day
 

SteveB wrote:
While true in the abstract, somebody who uses a knife is more sure of
the results than a person handling a gun.

That is proven by the statistical fact that at a range of three feet, more
people are stabbed than wounded by gunfire. It is truly amazing that at
arm's length, a person can miss with a gun, but have better luck with a
knife.

Another thing that has not been stated: a knife is infinitely more
intimidating than a gun. If you can put some distance between you and the
perp, the dangers from either a knife or a gun drop exponentially. But up
close and personal in a fight where the two combatants are not ever
disengaged, a knife usually wins, exacts more damage, or leads to lethal
consequences.

Steve



Heard a self proclaimed, self defense "expert" talking one day about
crime in three strike states. It was years ago, I don't remember who he
was. He said the old "be nice, co-operate, and give the robber your
wallet" didn't wash anymore. If a guy already had 2 strikes he would be
just as well to get you into an alley and shoot you. Both the robbery or
a murder have the same penalty, but in the murder, he can eliminate the
possibility of you testifying against him.

He broke it down like this. If a guy pulls a gun on you:

Run, straight not back and fourth, and yell while you are running to
attract attention. "There is a 50% chance the perp won't shoot", he said.

"If he does shoot you, there is a 50% chance he will miss".

"If he hits you there is a 50% chance it won't be fatal"...

Leaving you a 87.5% chance of surviving. If you go into the alley with
him, and he is already a two striker, well I forgot the odds, but they
weren't good...

Take it for what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree or subscribe, but
it's what the guy said..

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.




If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.




1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.

Gun saves another day
 

On 7/23/09 8:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"H the wrote in message
m...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.




If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.




1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.



The worst mistake of his presidency. Too bad George W. Bush didn't
bother to read up on that war.

--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:00:01 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"H the K" wrote in message
om...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.




If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.




1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.


Mine was June, 1965.
--

John H

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 23, 2:56*pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"Yogi of Woodstock" wrote in messagenews:nglg65d6sul1vj583mmi2k0b7d9rkopt7d@4ax .com...



On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:53:30 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:37:45 -0400, H the K wrote:

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

My guess is that the police don't train sufficiently for close-in
shooting. I always "warm-up" at the range by first shooting at a target
7 to 10 feet away, then about 20 feet away, and then I run the target
out to 75 feet.

You also need to learn a good pistol pointing technique.

You might want to read down in the article where it states there is a
clear disconnect between range marksmanship, and combat hitsmanship. *I
think Calif Bill is correct when he states "Hard to aim when ducking for
cover."

Don't argue with Harry - he's an expert on everything.

As for training, NYPD is second to none.

Er....Hello? *Marine Corps? *:)

The only people who do not have to be as accurate as the Marines is the Air
Force. *We drop a 500-2000# bomb and big hole.

You don't have to be really accurate with these either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5H_Z...eature=related

?:^ 0

Gun saves another day
 

On Jul 23, 9:16*am, Gene Kearns
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:07:21 -0700, jps penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:
|
|On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the K
|wrote:
|
|On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
| On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, *wrote:
|p
|
| Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
| knife is an expert.
|
| Flawed logic.
|
| The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
| alive. *Sound like a knife expert to you? *Neither of the women were
| armed from what I understand.
|
| Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
| someone's skull at close range. *What's the chance of survival?
|
| And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
| wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......
|
|At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
|considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?
|
|You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.
|
|I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
|trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
|What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
|bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
|little stress.
|
|We're talking about knives vs. guns. *In the same circumstances, the
|knife is going to be just as difficult to handle as a deadly weapon as
|a gun.

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step, "Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence. Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....

--
Agent 5.00 Build 1171

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepagehttp://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net/* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Excellent thoughts, Gene.

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
On 7/23/09 8:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"H the wrote in message
m...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700,
wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left
one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women
were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues
the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.




If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.




1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I
got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.



The worst mistake of his presidency. Too bad George W. Bush didn't bother
to read up on that war.

--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

May not have been the worst misteak :} of his presidency. Raising SS tax
to pay for government programs, passing the cost of those programs on to
future generations. May cost more and kill more than Viet Nam did. He
sucked as a President!!!

Gun saves another day
 

"John Again" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:00:01 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"H the K" wrote in message
news:tv2dnVa6xr0uXPXXnZ2dnUVZ_ixi4p2d@earthlink. com...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p

Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left
one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women
were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?

And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues
the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......

At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.

I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.




If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.




1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I
got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.


Mine was June, 1965.
--

John H

Fall 64. Went to the wrong address, so I joined the air force.

Gun saves another day
 

"Tim" wrote in message
...
On Jul 23, 2:56 pm, "Calif Bill" wrote:
"Yogi of Woodstock" wrote in
messagenews:nglg65d6sul1vj583mmi2k0b7d9rkopt7d@4ax .com...



On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:53:30 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:37:45 -0400, H the K wrote:

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles...ing/Combat.htm

My guess is that the police don't train sufficiently for close-in
shooting. I always "warm-up" at the range by first shooting at a
target
7 to 10 feet away, then about 20 feet away, and then I run the target
out to 75 feet.

You also need to learn a good pistol pointing technique.

You might want to read down in the article where it states there is a
clear disconnect between range marksmanship, and combat hitsmanship. I
think Calif Bill is correct when he states "Hard to aim when ducking for
cover."

Don't argue with Harry - he's an expert on everything.

As for training, NYPD is second to none.

Er....Hello? Marine Corps? :)

The only people who do not have to be as accurate as the Marines is the
Air
Force. We drop a 500-2000# bomb and big hole.

You don't have to be really accurate with these either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5H_Z...eature=related

?:^ 0

And they just get more deadly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73SciCMf9Rw

Gun saves another day
 

John Again wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:00:01 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
On 7/23/09 4:00 PM, Calif Bill wrote:
"Yogi of wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the
wrote:

On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
p
Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
knife is an expert.

Flawed logic.

The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
armed from what I understand.

Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?
And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......
At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?

You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.
I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
little stress.

You can also have the problem with a 9mm or .38 that even a decently
placed shot won't stop a motivated perpetrator before he can get to
you. There are lots of places on the body, even in the head with no
organs that a hole in will cause instant death. It is possible to end
up dead next to your dying attacker.
Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.
And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.



If I had been in charge, I would have gotten our troops out of there in
1964.



1964, That fine Democrat President LBJ cranked it up. Big Time. When I got
my draft notice signed by LBJ.


Mine was June, 1965.
--

John H

Harry's draft notice was signed by JFK.
That was a duty and an honor that no red blooded American could refuse.

Gun saves another day
 

H the K wrote:


The worst mistake of his presidency.

Don't ya love it? When it's a democrat, it's a "mistake".

Johnson

Gun saves another day
 

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:00:15 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC alive
today.

Killing all the VC wasn't enough to win the war. We did that, nearly,
during Tet of 68 and still lost. There were these Northerners with
guns, you see. VC, NVA, it made no difference, they all were non
Christian Gomers that didn't speak English, with Communist guns.

Casady

Gun saves another day
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:00:15 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.
And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC alive
today.

Killing all the VC wasn't enough to win the war. We did that, nearly,
during Tet of 68 and still lost. There were these Northerners with
guns, you see. VC, NVA, it made no difference, they all were non
Christian Gomers that didn't speak English, with Communist guns.

Casady


Too bad we didn't learn the lessons of Vietnam before Bush invaded Iraq.
It doesn't matter how many "insurgents" we kill, and it doesn't matter
when we leave. As soon as we do, Iraq will be blown up by its various
factions.


--
A wise Latina makes better decisions than a dumb elephant.

Gun saves another day
 

I have been certified now for thirteen years to carry a concealed firearm.
Used to be concealed weapon, but now concealed firearm.

Now, I take the choices in this order for a fight when you can touch the
opponent:

1. Knife
2. Pepper spray
3. Gun

YMMV. For me, I rate my own competency with each of these in the regard
listed. I'm 60, and have been shooting since the age of 8.

Up close and personal, give me a knife. Mostly invisible, which gives you
the element of surprise, and IMHO, more intimidating than a gun.

Steve

Gun saves another day
 

SteveB wrote:
I have been certified now for thirteen years to carry a concealed firearm.
Used to be concealed weapon, but now concealed firearm.

Now, I take the choices in this order for a fight when you can touch the
opponent:

1. Knife
2. Pepper spray
3. Gun

YMMV. For me, I rate my own competency with each of these in the regard
listed. I'm 60, and have been shooting since the age of 8.

Up close and personal, give me a knife. Mostly invisible, which gives you
the element of surprise, and IMHO, more intimidating than a gun.

Steve



Not to worry, as usual, Harry is making statements about something he
knows nothing about. In this case, it's in close combat.

Gun saves another day
 

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:00:15 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Just another case of Harry's superior abilities.

The man is truly amazing.

And if he had been in a combat role in SEA instead of a non combatant
role,
he would have ended the war single handedly. There would not be a VC
alive
today.

Killing all the VC wasn't enough to win the war. We did that, nearly,
during Tet of 68 and still lost. There were these Northerners with
guns, you see. VC, NVA, it made no difference, they all were non
Christian Gomers that didn't speak English, with Communist guns.

Casady

Tet, pretty much ended the VC and NVA. But by then we were quitting due to
politics. If there had only been one NVA after Tet, he would still have
gotten Saigon.

Gun saves another day
 

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:16:23 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:07:21 -0700, jps penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:54:42 -0400, wrote:
|
|On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:25:11 -0400, H the K
|wrote:
|
|On 7/22/09 9:11 PM, Gene wrote:
| On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:54 -0700, wrote:
|p
|
| Oh for ****'s sake Gene, you're assuming whomever is weidling the
| knife is an expert.
|
| Flawed logic.
|
| The guy in this case obviously meant to kill both women but left one
| alive. Sound like a knife expert to you? Neither of the women were
| armed from what I understand.
|
| Any dweeb with two hands and an arse can put a bullet through
| someone's skull at close range. What's the chance of survival?
|
| And I suppose merely being in possession of a gun somehow imbues the
| wielder with magical powers of perfect aim......
|
|At 10 feet with a target the size of an adult human and some
|considerable experience handling and shooting firearms?
|
|You don't need perfect aim, just "decent" aim.
|
|I suppose you haven't seen those police dash camera pictures where
|trained police officers fire lots of ammo without hitting anyone.
|What you can do on the range may not translate to what you can do in
|bad light, when you are not really prepared and under more than a
|little stress.
|
|We're talking about knives vs. guns. In the same circumstances, the
|knife is going to be just as difficult to handle as a deadly weapon as
|a gun.

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step, "Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence. Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....

You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.

Gun saves another day
 

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:06:07 -0700, jps wrote:

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step, "Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence. Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....
You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.


The issue is not 10 or 15 feet away, it is how fast you can close that
distance and once you are face to face, anyone swinging and stabbing
with a knife is deadly. It takes an expert to keep from being killed. Any
reasonably healthy person is quicker in 10 feet (the original
challenge) than the fastest drag racer. That is an old beer bet you
can't lose.
I suppose the real challenge for the gunslinger is can you actually
have the presence of mind to place a "kill shot", in a fraction of a
second, on an attacker who is lunging at you with a knife, that drops
them before they stab you. Without extensive training, I bet most
people freeze. Shooting them in the belly or the leg won't do it. You
will both die
in the same big pool of blood.


I dunno. If a really ****ed zombie came after me with a knife in hand from
165 feet away, and I had my SIG in hand ready to shoot, I have a feeling I
could pretty much empty a mag in him as I stepped backwards.

How many shots in the kill zone do you think it take to drop a zombie?




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief, I spent several years teaching
firearms and combat shooting to recruits, as well as veteran officers. I've
been in a couple of shooting scrapes myself, and have investigated
officer-involved shootings. I have seen situations where highly trained
officers while under extreme stress failed to hit a man-sized target five
yards away. I was present at a armed gunman situation and saw an officer
empty his 12 gauge pump shotgun at the suspect - emptied it by pumping all
five live rounds on the ground. He later complained the shotgun jammed. The
video tape proved him wrong.

I have also seen cases of extaordinary shooting skill by officers who barely
qualified on the combat range during periodic re-qualification.

If you haven't been in a live shooting situation, with its tremendous
stress, you are a fool to claim you will do anything with accuracy. Such
bravado will get you killed. If you don't want to give me any credibility on
the subject, ask any military veteran about their performance the first time
they were in a hot zone.

BTW, I hit my real moving target one time out of three at a distance of 20
yards, and I consistently fired expert on the pistol range.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:06:07 -0700, jps wrote:

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step, "Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence. Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....
You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.


The issue is not 10 or 15 feet away, it is how fast you can close that
distance and once you are face to face, anyone swinging and stabbing
with a knife is deadly. It takes an expert to keep from being killed.
Any reasonably healthy person is quicker in 10 feet (the original
challenge) than the fastest drag racer. That is an old beer bet you
can't lose.
I suppose the real challenge for the gunslinger is can you actually
have the presence of mind to place a "kill shot", in a fraction of a
second, on an attacker who is lunging at you with a knife, that drops
them before they stab you. Without extensive training, I bet most
people freeze. Shooting them in the belly or the leg won't do it. You
will both die
in the same big pool of blood.


I dunno. If a really ****ed zombie came after me with a knife in hand
from 165 feet away, and I had my SIG in hand ready to shoot, I have a
feeling I could pretty much empty a mag in him as I stepped backwards.

How many shots in the kill zone do you think it take to drop a zombie?




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief, I spent several years
teaching firearms and combat shooting to recruits, as well as veteran
officers. I've been in a couple of shooting scrapes myself, and have
investigated officer-involved shootings. I have seen situations where
highly trained officers while under extreme stress failed to hit a
man-sized target five yards away. I was present at a armed gunman
situation and saw an officer empty his 12 gauge pump shotgun at the
suspect - emptied it by pumping all five live rounds on the ground. He
later complained the shotgun jammed. The video tape proved him wrong.

I have also seen cases of extaordinary shooting skill by officers who
barely qualified on the combat range during periodic re-qualification.

If you haven't been in a live shooting situation, with its tremendous
stress, you are a fool to claim you will do anything with accuracy. Such
bravado will get you killed. If you don't want to give me any
credibility on the subject, ask any military veteran about their
performance the first time they were in a hot zone.

BTW, I hit my real moving target one time out of three at a distance of
20 yards, and I consistently fired expert on the pistol range.

You are underestimating the stupidity of Harry Krause, Lou. Anyone with
a lick of sense would first attempt to extract himself from the
situation. I don't know where Krause is getting his cowboy training, but
he should seek out more responsible trainers, for his own good.

Gun saves another day
 

J i m wrote:
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:06:07 -0700, jps wrote:

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must
be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step,
"Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence. Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....
You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.


The issue is not 10 or 15 feet away, it is how fast you can close that
distance and once you are face to face, anyone swinging and stabbing
with a knife is deadly. It takes an expert to keep from being
killed. Any reasonably healthy person is quicker in 10 feet (the
original
challenge) than the fastest drag racer. That is an old beer bet you
can't lose.
I suppose the real challenge for the gunslinger is can you actually
have the presence of mind to place a "kill shot", in a fraction of a
second, on an attacker who is lunging at you with a knife, that drops
them before they stab you. Without extensive training, I bet most
people freeze. Shooting them in the belly or the leg won't do it.
You will both die
in the same big pool of blood.


I dunno. If a really ****ed zombie came after me with a knife in hand
from 165 feet away, and I had my SIG in hand ready to shoot, I have a
feeling I could pretty much empty a mag in him as I stepped backwards.

How many shots in the kill zone do you think it take to drop a zombie?




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief, I spent several years
teaching firearms and combat shooting to recruits, as well as veteran
officers. I've been in a couple of shooting scrapes myself, and have
investigated officer-involved shootings. I have seen situations where
highly trained officers while under extreme stress failed to hit a
man-sized target five yards away. I was present at a armed gunman
situation and saw an officer empty his 12 gauge pump shotgun at the
suspect - emptied it by pumping all five live rounds on the ground. He
later complained the shotgun jammed. The video tape proved him wrong.

I have also seen cases of extaordinary shooting skill by officers who
barely qualified on the combat range during periodic re-qualification.

If you haven't been in a live shooting situation, with its tremendous
stress, you are a fool to claim you will do anything with accuracy.
Such bravado will get you killed. If you don't want to give me any
credibility on the subject, ask any military veteran about their
performance the first time they were in a hot zone.

BTW, I hit my real moving target one time out of three at a distance
of 20 yards, and I consistently fired expert on the pistol range.

You are underestimating the stupidity of Harry Krause, Lou. Anyone with
a lick of sense would first attempt to extract himself from the
situation. I don't know where Krause is getting his cowboy training, but
he should seek out more responsible trainers, for his own good.

Harry is familiar with using deadly force, he once held a criminal at
bay with his pick'em up truck. :)

The man is fearless.

--
Reginald P. Smithers III, Esq.

This Newsgroup post is a natural product. The slight variations in
spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in
no way are to be considered flaws or defects

Gun saves another day
 

Just Regigie wrote:
J i m wrote:
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:06:07 -0700, jps wrote:

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must
be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step,
"Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps
you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence.
Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....
You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.


The issue is not 10 or 15 feet away, it is how fast you can close that
distance and once you are face to face, anyone swinging and stabbing
with a knife is deadly. It takes an expert to keep from being
killed. Any reasonably healthy person is quicker in 10 feet (the
original
challenge) than the fastest drag racer. That is an old beer bet you
can't lose.
I suppose the real challenge for the gunslinger is can you actually
have the presence of mind to place a "kill shot", in a fraction of a
second, on an attacker who is lunging at you with a knife, that drops
them before they stab you. Without extensive training, I bet most
people freeze. Shooting them in the belly or the leg won't do it.
You will both die
in the same big pool of blood.


I dunno. If a really ****ed zombie came after me with a knife in
hand from 165 feet away, and I had my SIG in hand ready to shoot, I
have a feeling I could pretty much empty a mag in him as I stepped
backwards.

How many shots in the kill zone do you think it take to drop a zombie?




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief, I spent several years
teaching firearms and combat shooting to recruits, as well as veteran
officers. I've been in a couple of shooting scrapes myself, and have
investigated officer-involved shootings. I have seen situations where
highly trained officers while under extreme stress failed to hit a
man-sized target five yards away. I was present at a armed gunman
situation and saw an officer empty his 12 gauge pump shotgun at the
suspect - emptied it by pumping all five live rounds on the ground.
He later complained the shotgun jammed. The video tape proved him wrong.

I have also seen cases of extaordinary shooting skill by officers who
barely qualified on the combat range during periodic re-qualification.

If you haven't been in a live shooting situation, with its tremendous
stress, you are a fool to claim you will do anything with accuracy.
Such bravado will get you killed. If you don't want to give me any
credibility on the subject, ask any military veteran about their
performance the first time they were in a hot zone.

BTW, I hit my real moving target one time out of three at a distance
of 20 yards, and I consistently fired expert on the pistol range.

You are underestimating the stupidity of Harry Krause, Lou. Anyone
with a lick of sense would first attempt to extract himself from the
situation. I don't know where Krause is getting his cowboy training,
but he should seek out more responsible trainers, for his own good.

Harry is familiar with using deadly force, he once held a criminal at
bay with his pick'em up truck. :)

The man is fearless.

The man is, well never mind. That's another story.

Gun saves another day
 

J i m wrote:
Just Regigie wrote:


You are underestimating the stupidity of Harry Krause, Lou. Anyone
with a lick of sense would first attempt to extract himself from the
situation. I don't know where Krause is getting his cowboy training,
but he should seek out more responsible trainers, for his own good.

Harry is familiar with using deadly force, he once held a criminal at
bay with his pick'em up truck. :)

The man is fearless.

The man is, well never mind. That's another story.

Did you hear the reason why Harry changed his mind on handgun ownership?


He found it too hard to carry a pickup truck in his pants.

--
Reginald P. Smithers III, Esq.

This Newsgroup post is a natural product. The slight variations in
spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in
no way are to be considered flaws or defects

Gun saves another day
 

Just Regigie wrote:
J i m wrote:
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:06:07 -0700, jps wrote:

I think you have finally argued full circle. In order for a knife to
be an effective weapon, the wielder must be expert and, by your own
admission, a gun is just as difficult to handle as a knife.

Therefore, for a gun to be an effective weapon, the wielder must
be an
expert.

Now, maybe you are ready to understand the next logical step,
"Weapons
don't kill people, people kill people." Once there, perhaps
you'll be
ready to develop effective strategies to stop violence.
Historically,
something no amount of "take the weapons away" legislation has
done....
You don't have to be an expert with a gun to kill someone from 10 or
15 feet. You'd certainly have to be an expert with a knife or any
other sharp instrument from 10 or 15 feet.

I'm sure that doesn't make any sense to an NRA supporter.


The issue is not 10 or 15 feet away, it is how fast you can close that
distance and once you are face to face, anyone swinging and stabbing
with a knife is deadly. It takes an expert to keep from being
killed. Any reasonably healthy person is quicker in 10 feet (the
original
challenge) than the fastest drag racer. That is an old beer bet you
can't lose.
I suppose the real challenge for the gunslinger is can you actually
have the presence of mind to place a "kill shot", in a fraction of a
second, on an attacker who is lunging at you with a knife, that drops
them before they stab you. Without extensive training, I bet most
people freeze. Shooting them in the belly or the leg won't do it.
You will both die
in the same big pool of blood.


I dunno. If a really ****ed zombie came after me with a knife in
hand from 165 feet away, and I had my SIG in hand ready to shoot, I
have a feeling I could pretty much empty a mag in him as I stepped
backwards.

How many shots in the kill zone do you think it take to drop a zombie?




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief, I spent several years
teaching firearms and combat shooting to recruits, as well as veteran
officers. I've been in a couple of shooting scrapes myself, and have
investigated officer-involved shootings. I have seen situations where
highly trained officers while under extreme stress failed to hit a
man-sized target five yards away. I was present at a armed gunman
situation and saw an officer empty his 12 gauge pump shotgun at the
suspect - emptied it by pumping all five live rounds on the ground.
He later complained the shotgun jammed. The video tape proved him wrong.

I have also seen cases of extaordinary shooting skill by officers who
barely qualified on the combat range during periodic re-qualification.

If you haven't been in a live shooting situation, with its tremendous
stress, you are a fool to claim you will do anything with accuracy.
Such bravado will get you killed. If you don't want to give me any
credibility on the subject, ask any military veteran about their
performance the first time they were in a hot zone.

BTW, I hit my real moving target one time out of three at a distance
of 20 yards, and I consistently fired expert on the pistol range.

You are underestimating the stupidity of Harry Krause, Lou. Anyone
with a lick of sense would first attempt to extract himself from the
situation. I don't know where Krause is getting his cowboy training,
but he should seek out more responsible trainers, for his own good.

Harry is familiar with using deadly force, he once held a criminal at
bay with his pick'em up truck. :)

The man is fearless.


What you are forgetting is Harry's expert knowledge about anything and
everything. Just ask him! No matter that Lu has been a police officer
most of his life and before that trained recruits in weaponry. Harry
just within the last couple of years took to gun ownership, and knows
all about any situation that may arise and he knows just how he'd react.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum view
you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my military
active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty years. For you to
try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while lacking any information
is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other hand
are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to everybody who
reads your posts. WAFA.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum
view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty years.
For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while lacking
any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other
hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to
everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.




Notice what a bigot the asshole is?

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum
view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty years.
For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while lacking
any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other
hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to
everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But I
don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though I
do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum
view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty years.
For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while lacking any
information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other
hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to
everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their best
to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But I don't
dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though I
do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen. Police
corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many departments, large
and small, and far too often police and prosecutors work too hard to
convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you recall a case like
that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this
forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But
I don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though
I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police chief
in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this
forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But
I don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though
I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?


WAFA Krause certainly has a belly full of hate, doesn't he? He sounds
like he's a disciple of the reverend Jeremiah Wright

Gun saves another day
 

"J i m" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum
view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other
hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to
everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But I
don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though I
do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?


WAFA Krause certainly has a belly full of hate, doesn't he? He sounds like
he's a disciple of the reverend Jeremiah Wright

He gives Jeremiah Wright a bad name.

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this forum
view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the other
hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious to
everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But I
don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though I
do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police chief in
which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that they
were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an officer for
mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw that the
offender was released by the district attorney. When was the last time you
reported or even criticized union misconduct?

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"J i m" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision
a non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is
an exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in
this forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of
endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs
while lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern
day" Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing
their best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much
succeeded. But I don't dislike them because of their race, gender
preference, age, or religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution,
though I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working
policemen. Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too
many departments, large and small, and far too often police and
prosecutors work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent.
I'm sure you recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?


WAFA Krause certainly has a belly full of hate, doesn't he? He sounds
like he's a disciple of the reverend Jeremiah Wright

He gives Jeremiah Wright a bad name.


Yeah, not trusting cops to investigate themselves...that makes me a
"hater." Morons, both of you.


--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision
a non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is
an exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in
this forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of
endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs
while lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern
day" Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing
their best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much
succeeded. But I don't dislike them because of their race, gender
preference, age, or religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution,
though I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working
policemen. Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too
many departments, large and small, and far too often police and
prosecutors work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent.
I'm sure you recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police
chief in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and
incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that they
were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an officer
for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw that the
offender was released by the district attorney. When was the last time
you reported or even criticized union misconduct?



My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the union,
the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the local's web
site. If there was missing money, the bonding company would step in and
the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The local meetings are
open to every member, and there are no "executive" sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who spent
all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this
forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But
I don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though
I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police chief
in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that they
were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an officer
for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw that the
offender was released by the district attorney. When was the last time
you reported or even criticized union misconduct?



My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the union,
the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the local's web
site. If there was missing money, the bonding company would step in and
the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The local meetings are open
to every member, and there are no "executive" sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who spent
all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Your reply is not responsive to my question, as usual. Regarding your query.
the murder happened on my watch. The arrest and conviction, then later
exoneration did not.

Gun saves another day
 

Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to
envision a non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a
"police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is
an exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in
this forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of
endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of
my military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than
thirty years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic
barbs while lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently
obvious to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern
day" Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade
doing their best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty
much succeeded. But I don't dislike them because of their race,
gender preference, age, or religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution,
though I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working
policemen. Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in
too many departments, large and small, and far too often police
and prosecutors work too hard to convict the poor, black, and
innocent. I'm sure you recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police
chief in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and
incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that
they were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an
officer for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and
saw that the offender was released by the district attorney. When was
the last time you reported or even criticized union misconduct?



My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the
union, the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the
local's web site. If there was missing money, the bonding company
would step in and the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The
local meetings are open to every member, and there are no "executive"
sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who
spent all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Your reply is not responsive to my question, as usual. Regarding your
query. the murder happened on my watch. The arrest and conviction, then
later exoneration did not.



It's as responsive as it can be. While I am a member of two unions,
these days I'm only involved in one, and, basically, only socially.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision
a non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police
chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is
an exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in
this forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of
endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs
while lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern
day" Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing
their best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much
succeeded. But I don't dislike them because of their race, gender
preference, age, or religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution,
though I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working
policemen. Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too
many departments, large and small, and far too often police and
prosecutors work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent.
I'm sure you recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police
chief in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and
incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that
they were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an
officer for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw
that the offender was released by the district attorney. When was the
last time you reported or even criticized union misconduct?



My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the union,
the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the local's web
site. If there was missing money, the bonding company would step in and
the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The local meetings are
open to every member, and there are no "executive" sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who spent
all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Your reply is not responsive to my question, as usual. Regarding your
query. the murder happened on my watch. The arrest and conviction, then
later exoneration did not.



It's as responsive as it can be. While I am a member of two unions, these
days I'm only involved in one, and, basically, only socially.




--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.


I'll restate the question, knowing in advance you cannot give a straight
answer: "When was the last time you reported or even criticized union
misconduct?"

Gun saves another day
 

"H the K" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:


Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief



Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?

You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this
forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.


Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But
I don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though
I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?



Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police chief
in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.

Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that they
were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an officer
for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw that the
offender was released by the district attorney. When was the last time
you reported or even criticized union misconduct?



My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the union,
the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the local's web
site. If there was missing money, the bonding company would step in and
the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The local meetings are open
to every member, and there are no "executive" sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who spent
all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.





How do you know money is missing? Investments in companies that are
controlled by a brother in law, etc. Seems to be the MO for unions. Or
stock manipulation.

Gun saves another day
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
...
Lu Powell wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:
"H the K" wrote in message
m...
Lu Powell wrote:

Don't bet on it. Before I was a police chief


Is your real name Theophilus Eugene Connor? It's hard to envision a
non-thinking racist like you as a cop, let alone a "police chief."
Well, maybe not. Was it in the south?
You are a first class clownish fool. Trying to reason with you is an
exercise in futility. Don't you see how most of the folks in this
forum view you? Do you really think "WAFA" is a term of endearment?

My police career was one of honor and pride. The same is true of my
military active duty and reserve stints spanning more than thirty
years. For you to try to belittle that with your idiotic barbs while
lacking any information is insanity in its purest form.

BTW, "Bull" Connor made no bones about being a bigot. You, on the
other hand are blind to your own bigotry, which is patently obvious
to everybody who reads your posts. WAFA.

Indeed, Lucius, I make no bones about my dislike for the "modern day"
Republican conservatives, who have spent the last decade doing their
best to ruin this country. In fact, they've pretty much succeeded. But
I don't dislike them because of their race, gender preference, age, or
religion.

Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of the police as an institution, though
I do believe there are many honorable, brave, hard-working policemen.
Police corruption is pretty much institutionalized in too many
departments, large and small, and far too often police and prosecutors
work too hard to convict the poor, black, and innocent. I'm sure you
recall a case like that.



--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were
laws, and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of
them, *unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or
minister. If that is your position in life, then anything goes.
Whatever, WAFA. Where did you copy and paste that monogram?


Surely you recall at least one case in all your years as a police chief
in which bad police work resulted in the arrest, trial and incarceration
of an innocent man.





--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.
Never said I didn't. In cases where I was able to do so, I saw that they
were released in a timely fashion. In one case I terminated an officer
for mishandling evidence, then lying about it in court, and saw that the
offender was released by the district attorney. When was the last time
you reported or even criticized union misconduct?


My local union is squeaky clean. The quarterly financials for the union,
the health plan, and the retirement plan, are posted on the local's web
site. If there was missing money, the bonding company would step in and
the responsible officers would be prosecuted. The local meetings are open
to every member, and there are no "executive" sessions.

What was your role in getting that fellow exonerated...the one who spent
all those years in the slam...you know who I mean.





How do you know money is missing? Investments in companies that are
controlled by a brother in law, etc. Seems to be the MO for unions. Or
stock manipulation.




Outside auditors.


--
Whatever moral rules you have proposed, abide by them as they were laws,
and as if you would be guilty of impiety by violating any of them,
*unless* you are a conservative Republican office holder or minister. If
that is your position in life, then anything goes.