"Wizard of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:25:28 -0500, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:44:38 -0800, jps wrote:



The bill sucks but don't blame Obama for the **** we're in or the
debt
our progeny will shoulder.

I suspect that bill will be radically changed in the Senate.
Too much resistance to the debt incurred.
And too many pieces that aren't "stimulative."
We got burned when the pols rushed TARP, and public resistance
against hurriedly tossing money is pretty high.
What I'm enjoying seeing is tentative jabs at "free trade."
We need more PERMANENT jobs.
Without addressing that need none of this stuff is good long term.
Cheap consumer goods and crass materialism is what got us here.
Wall Street bull**** telling everybody they could be rich without
labor.

IMO, this mentality that is killing us now started in the dot com
balloon. (that burst)
I remember companies going public within a year of incorporation and
having stock being valued and sold for astronomical prices although
they had never turned a profit. In fact, some had never produced a
product or service. It was the beginning of the get-rich-quick using
other peoples' money thought process and everyone was in on the game.

Greed is as American as apple pie.

I suppose that's true, but I don't confuse greed with genuine, honest
attempts to better one's self financially or otherwise. Quite often the
ambition someone has opens opportunities for others as well.

Dreams of and setting goals for success is also as American as apple
pie. Part of success includes financial reward for many, and there's
nothing wrong with that, IMO. To gain financially at the expense of
others is wrong, and that's what we are witnessing.

We're on the same track. Nothing wrong with dreams, setting goals and
achieving them, and attaining some financial reward. That's not greed.

Some financial reward?

What's "some" financial reward? Who defines what "some" is and what
"greed" is?



In my mind, you are entitled to whatever amount of financial reward that you
can honestly earn.

What you do with your financial reward is a different subject.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:

"Wizard of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:25:28 -0500, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:44:38 -0800, jps wrote:



The bill sucks but don't blame Obama for the **** we're in or
the debt
our progeny will shoulder.

I suspect that bill will be radically changed in the Senate.
Too much resistance to the debt incurred.
And too many pieces that aren't "stimulative."
We got burned when the pols rushed TARP, and public resistance
against hurriedly tossing money is pretty high.
What I'm enjoying seeing is tentative jabs at "free trade."
We need more PERMANENT jobs.
Without addressing that need none of this stuff is good long term.
Cheap consumer goods and crass materialism is what got us here.
Wall Street bull**** telling everybody they could be rich without
labor.

IMO, this mentality that is killing us now started in the dot com
balloon. (that burst)
I remember companies going public within a year of incorporation and
having stock being valued and sold for astronomical prices although
they had never turned a profit. In fact, some had never produced a
product or service. It was the beginning of the get-rich-quick using
other peoples' money thought process and everyone was in on the game.

Greed is as American as apple pie.

I suppose that's true, but I don't confuse greed with genuine, honest
attempts to better one's self financially or otherwise. Quite often
the
ambition someone has opens opportunities for others as well.

Dreams of and setting goals for success is also as American as apple
pie. Part of success includes financial reward for many, and there's
nothing wrong with that, IMO. To gain financially at the expense of
others is wrong, and that's what we are witnessing.

We're on the same track. Nothing wrong with dreams, setting goals and
achieving them, and attaining some financial reward. That's not greed.

Some financial reward?

What's "some" financial reward? Who defines what "some" is and what
"greed" is?



In my mind, you are entitled to whatever amount of financial reward that
you can honestly earn.

What you do with your financial reward is a different subject.

Eisboch


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...

"HK" wrote in message
...


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...


See? I sometimes choose my words carefully also.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...


See? I sometimes choose my words carefully also.

Eisboch


Well, I can't argue with "honestly" earn.

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...


See? I sometimes choose my words carefully also.

What is the value of a chief executive who employs 150,000 people,
increases the share holder's value and shows a profit?

BAR wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...


See? I sometimes choose my words carefully also.

What is the value of a chief executive who employs 150,000 people,
increases the share holder's value and shows a profit?

No more than 10 times the average earnings of the average employee.

"HK" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...


See? I sometimes choose my words carefully also.

What is the value of a chief executive who employs 150,000 people,
increases the share holder's value and shows a profit?

No more than 10 times the average earnings of the average employee.


Why? What is the basis of your number? Why not 5 times? Why not 20
times?
Is 10 times a "moral" basis number?

The problem we have is not one of making sure people don't earn too much
money.
The problem we have is enforcing the laws that prevent people from screwing
other people out of theirs.

Eisboch

HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"Wizard of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:25:28 -0500, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:44:38 -0800, jps wrote:



The bill sucks but don't blame Obama for the **** we're in or
the debt
our progeny will shoulder.

I suspect that bill will be radically changed in the Senate.
Too much resistance to the debt incurred.
And too many pieces that aren't "stimulative."
We got burned when the pols rushed TARP, and public resistance
against hurriedly tossing money is pretty high.
What I'm enjoying seeing is tentative jabs at "free trade."
We need more PERMANENT jobs.
Without addressing that need none of this stuff is good long term.
Cheap consumer goods and crass materialism is what got us here.
Wall Street bull**** telling everybody they could be rich without
labor.

IMO, this mentality that is killing us now started in the dot com
balloon. (that burst)
I remember companies going public within a year of incorporation and
having stock being valued and sold for astronomical prices although
they had never turned a profit. In fact, some had never produced a
product or service. It was the beginning of the get-rich-quick using
other peoples' money thought process and everyone was in on the
game.

Greed is as American as apple pie.

I suppose that's true, but I don't confuse greed with genuine, honest
attempts to better one's self financially or otherwise. Quite
often the
ambition someone has opens opportunities for others as well.

Dreams of and setting goals for success is also as American as apple
pie. Part of success includes financial reward for many, and there's
nothing wrong with that, IMO. To gain financially at the expense of
others is wrong, and that's what we are witnessing.

We're on the same track. Nothing wrong with dreams, setting goals and
achieving them, and attaining some financial reward. That's not greed.

Some financial reward?

What's "some" financial reward? Who defines what "some" is and what
"greed" is?



In my mind, you are entitled to whatever amount of financial reward
that you can honestly earn.

What you do with your financial reward is a different subject.

Eisboch


Ahhh...honestly earn...well...

This down turn is very similar to the dot com balloon, and hopefully the
recovery will be similar. Both were cause by worthless paper, paper
companies then and bad loans now.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:33:17 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

In my mind, you are entitled to whatever amount of financial reward that you
can honestly earn.

What you do with your financial reward is a different subject.

Eisboch

Do you consider honestly is defined by legality or some other measure?

I can tell you that the year Michael Eisner gave himself $500M out of
Disney was a good year for Disney and Eisner did have a huge hand in
Disney's revival.

But it was glutinous and a horrible precedent to set.

The greedy assholes who get paid enormous sums to ride a company into
the ground don't have a moral or ethical leg to stand on, but for now
at least, it's still legal.

Is that what you consider honest?

Not intended as a slight to you, I'm truly interested.

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:33:17 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

In my mind, you are entitled to whatever amount of financial reward that
you
can honestly earn.

What you do with your financial reward is a different subject.

Eisboch

Do you consider honestly is defined by legality or some other measure?

I can tell you that the year Michael Eisner gave himself $500M out of
Disney was a good year for Disney and Eisner did have a huge hand in
Disney's revival.

But it was glutinous and a horrible precedent to set.

The greedy assholes who get paid enormous sums to ride a company into
the ground don't have a moral or ethical leg to stand on, but for now
at least, it's still legal.

Is that what you consider honest?

Not intended as a slight to you, I'm truly interested.


That's a tough question to answer because who is qualified to assign
morality to a number?
I am not. I don't think you are either. You may have an opinion, as well
as I, but I'll bet the numbers are different.

"Honest" to me means that you earned what you did legally AND did not take
advantage of or gain your success at the expense of someone else. You run
a business. You must have heard the corny cliché about the best contract is
one that is fair to each party.

Eisboch