"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...

And let's hope they actually start discusssing the security risks
associated with this idea.

What security risks would that be?

Invalid data being improperly uploaded from an authorized source.

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.



I sure hope not. Electronic devices fail and radio frequencies can be
jammed or interferred with.

Paper maps can be misprinted. They can get destroyed accidentally, and
buoys
can be moved by storms and collisions. A compass can be damaged and also
interfered with by magnetic sources on the ship or in the waters. They
too
are not 100% reliable.

And a chartplotter's electronics can die at hundreds of different points
of
failure. Even something as simple a blown backlight on the LCD can render
it useless. To say nothing of corrosion on any number of connectors. Or
just plain power failure.

So in your own special immature way you are arguing that both systems have
failure points. Duh.

If the power goes out I can simply walk out in
the SUNLIGHT, read the paper chart and eye up the navigation markers.

This is why I'm afraid to ride on a boat that you are piloting. You don't
even seem to understand that its dark for half the day.



The point is that none of them work well enough to be consider 'exclusive'
of the others.

Read the subject line of this thread again. Its about using GPS to track
buoys.



Your fears come from your lack of understanding of
the basic principles of navigation.

And your naivete regarding possible interference with GPS is likewise
lacking in understanding.

You have a lot of courage to use the word "naivete" after your comment above
about using daylight to read your paper map. Its clear that you purchased a
GPS at your local boat store and have learned how to push a few of the
buttons and now here you are trying to pretend you are an expert.

How many times has your GPS quit working due to interference? Are you even
aware of what is being done to reduce that problem? Do you even know what
RAIM is?



Its clear that you are one of the old geezers who thinks its a sin to use
anything but compass and paper map. You think this way because thats all
you
know.

You're a fool if you think you know my level of experience.

Your level of experience is clear from the immature and emotional things you
say.

You're fishing
to insult the intelligence of the group but all you're doing is painting
yourself the idiot.

You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.



While I agree that electronic charting is
*definitely* worth using it's not without issues.

Again, what issues would that be? Its interesting how vague your language
gets when telling the world how much you hate electronic navigation. You
don't want to admit that the only problem is that you fear it because you
don't understand it.

Again, see earlier fool comment. I understand electronic navigation quite
well, thank you...

No. You don't. You have demonstrated that you don't.

and I like using it whenever possible.

You are clearly an appliance operator. That's all you understand. Being an
appliance operator is not a bad thing in itself, just don't try to pretend
in this group that you understand anything about the basics of navigation.

But it's ridiculous
to think it's and end-all, beat-all solution for navigation.

GPS navigation does not require buoys. It never did and it never will. The
rest of your mindless bleating is against a straw man of your own making.



And when it comes to safety I'm not sure I'd even bother
arguing for 'saving'. Penny-wise, pound-foolish, more or less.

You seem to be a rather slow individual.

And you're an arrogant ass, but I'm sure you've heard that before.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they learned
and all they are capable of knowing. I'm still laughing from your claim that
when your GPS fails you can simply take your paper map out into the
SUNLIGHT. LOL!



The idea that GPS navigation does
not require buoys in any way in the water or on a chart has completely
soared over your head. Your mind clearly has not come to grips with that
basic fact. Instead you spend this post arguing that buoys should stay
for
redundancy. This is a perfectly good reason to keep buoys in the water
but
has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. Considering
your
inability to think and process written material in this thread, I'm glad
I
won't be riding on any of your boats. It doesn't sound safe.

Wow, how stunningly immature.

Yes, just what I was thinking about you and your fetish for paper map and
compass.

I see the concept that GPS does not require buoys is still way over your
head.

Instead of carrying out a rational
conversation all you can do it stoop to insulting anyone that contradicts
you? Wake us up when you grow up and learn how to converse.

Learn how to read a post before you respond to it unless you wish to be
shown the fool.

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to
your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and
don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.

You really are an arrogant one, aren't you?

It's not about not understanding GPS or liking charts instead of it. It's
about disagreeing with your blanket statements about GPS being a complete
replacement for them, in an exclusionary manner. All the rest of your
posting is just geared toward trying to shout down anyone that doesn't buy
into your delusional beliefs.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they learned
and all they are capable of knowing.

Were are you getting this whole 'geezer' issue from? What're you, a
teenager still living in your parent's basement? It's not about lecturing
anyone that paper and buoys are "better". More than binary arguments about
one OR the other are ill-conceived.

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...

Thats what Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and data authentication is
for.
Its clear that you don't understand these concepts either.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.


You shouldn't try to hide behind the group now that you have been shown
to
not know much about what you are talking about. I see no one running to
your
aid or trying to defend your emotional statements. You are simply an old
geezer who jumps at the chance to declare how you love paper maps and
don't
trust GPS because you don't understand GPS and now you are upset that I
dared to point out that fact.

You really are an arrogant one, aren't you?

I am simply pointing out how obvious it is that you don't understand the
basic principles of navigation, GPS, electronic charting and PKI and you
also don't seem to understand that you can't read a paper map in the dark
yet here you are in this group lecturing people about how great paper maps
are. I would say it is you who is arrogant. You might learn a lot more if
you stop talking and listen for a moment.


It's not about not understanding GPS or liking charts instead of it. It's
about disagreeing with your blanket statements about GPS being a complete
replacement for them, in an exclusionary manner. All the rest of your
posting is just geared toward trying to shout down anyone that doesn't buy
into your delusional beliefs.

Only from old geezers who enjoy lecturing the rest of the world about how
smart they are and how map and compass is the "end-all, beat-all solution
for navigation" when the truth is that map and compass is all they
learned
and all they are capable of knowing.

Were are you getting this whole 'geezer' issue from?

From your ill considered and uneducated outbursts in this thread that have
nothing to do with the point being made which was that GPS never has
required buoys and never will.

What're you, a
teenager still living in your parent's basement? It's not about lecturing
anyone that paper and buoys are "better". More than binary arguments
about
one OR the other are ill-conceived.

Belt and suspenders. Lots of tubby old geezers wear them both. You can
continue to lecture the whole group about how you think that maps and
compasses and buoys are required or the maritime industry will come to some
sort of horrible destruction but I am personally getting bored with your
shallowness and inability to read.

I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your
first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.

Ted, you're grasping at straws. It's apparent you've got some sort of ego
trip you're trying to sustain. It's pathetic, you should seek help managing
this anti-social behavior.

From your ill considered and uneducated outbursts in this thread that have
nothing to do with the point being made which was that GPS never has
required buoys and never will.

Uh, you seem desperate to try and attach that thinking to me and I've never
espoused it.

Belt and suspenders. Lots of tubby old geezers wear them both. You can
continue to lecture the whole group about how you think that maps and
compasses and buoys are required or the maritime industry will come to
some
sort of horrible destruction but I am personally getting bored with your
shallowness and inability to read.

Again, you seem bent on trying to prove your point based on little more than
insults. I'm certainly not lecturing anyone on using any one solution over
another, there's room (and need) for all of them. That you have tried to
turn it into some sort of flamefest is pathetic.

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
...
I'm quite familiar with PKI and the insecurities associated with it.

No. You are not. If you were then you would have mentioned it in your
first
response. Nice try at pretending you are smart but sorry, no cigar.

Ted, you're grasping at straws.

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys. Then you
jumped in and announced that buoys and paper maps in the sunlight are better
than GPS - a complete and total non sequitur. You clearly don't know much at
all about GPS but still felt the urgent need to jump in here and profess
your geezer loyalty to map and compass and buoy. It wouldn't be so pathetic
if a thousand geezers before you hadn't also tried to lecture the world
about how map and compass and buoy is the only safe way to navigate the
water.

It's apparent you've got some sort of ego
trip you're trying to sustain. It's pathetic, you should seek help
managing
this anti-social behavior.

You are projecting your own emotional issues upon others with the above
statement. Stay on topic and say something intelligent if you don't want to
be called to task.

"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree. But, alas, that
is far into the future as boating crawls along at a technology snails
pace.

The boys went out in the bouy tender, last Friday, and moved that bouy
out 300' farther into what USED to be the channel, before the tide
decided to make a low tide beach out of it for the kids to enjoy. This
marks the now 300' narrower channel so you don't run "Titanic" aground,
creating your own hazard to navigation.

The bouy gives immediate data to the more competent sailors. "Stay on
THAT side of me, or your gonna spend the night.", he says to me by mental
telepathy. Just as soon as the bouy boys left it in its new position,
all mariners, even those not really mariners, had its instructions to
stay clear on THAT side of it.

Your chartplotter/GPS has data in it that's at least 3 years old, by the
time the bouy's new position grinds its way through, first, the
government bureaucracy, gets printed up in a Notice to Mariners, gets
picked up by the mapping company, gets plotted on the appropriate chart,
gets charted into a C-Map ROM....then, after 2 years of procrastination
on your part trying NOT to spend all that money they want for an upgrade
to the old C-Map ROM you're using now, gets bought by you and actually
shows up in the new position on your display.

Of course, during those 3 years, the bouy boys have moved the damned bouy
12 more times as the tide keeps making changes to the low tide beach the
kids are enjoying, there at Dead Man's Bend. ANY data now available
about Dead Man's Bend on ANY C-Map chart is REAL OLD AND ALWAYS OUT OF
DATE! That's not true of that bouy you show so much disdain for. Its
warning is as instantaneous as it takes the bouy boys to move it.

Please don't tell me you navigate narrow channels with GPS chartplotters.
If you do, I wanna be FAR away from you....there in the dark. Don't
forget to leave the anchor light on when, not if, you're aground to warn
the rest of us.

Now, at some point, technology will overcome the resistance maritime
interests have to its capabilities. Just like AIS is doing now, 10 years
after a ham radio operator invented APRS, there'll come a time when the
gears will grind out a wireless data link, running right off that bouy's
batteries, maybe, but certainly from the shore station wireless data
link. Your chartplotter won't have a $400 CDROM or a $300 chart plug.
It'll have a $400 SUBSCRIPTION, which will, like Norton Internet
Security, allow you to connect to the planet's nav data clearinghouse
server, very profitably run by some overpriced contractor selling you
data your taxes created...you know, like weather data is. Before you go
to the boat, even, you can logon the laptop, or that new wireless-
equipped GPS handheld and they will automatically call the server,
updating their hard drive databases of every shoal on the planet. Your
boat's chart will look exactly like the master chart the bouy boys
updated from THEIR wireless computer aboard the bouy tender, probably
before the bouy anchor touched bottom again.

When you turn on the boat's fancy new GPS chart plotter, it'll spin up
its hard drive, logon to the nav data server, and upgrade itself with all
the latest charts, before you get the AC power cord wound up around the
dock post so you can go sailing. By the time you leave the dock, your
charts will be their charts....not their charts from 3 years ago.

Until that time....PLEASE, stay on THAT side of the bouy, not what's on
your screen!

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree. But, alas, that
is far into the future as boating crawls along at a technology snails
pace.

The boys went out in the bouy tender, last Friday, and moved that bouy
out 300' farther into what USED to be the channel, before the tide
decided to make a low tide beach out of it for the kids to enjoy. This
marks the now 300' narrower channel so you don't run "Titanic" aground,
creating your own hazard to navigation.

The bouy gives immediate data to the more competent sailors. "Stay on
THAT side of me, or your gonna spend the night.", he says to me by mental
telepathy. Just as soon as the bouy boys left it in its new position,
all mariners, even those not really mariners, had its instructions to
stay clear on THAT side of it.

Your chartplotter/GPS has data in it that's at least 3 years old, by the
time the bouy's new position grinds its way through, first, the
government bureaucracy, gets printed up in a Notice to Mariners, gets
picked up by the mapping company, gets plotted on the appropriate chart,
gets charted into a C-Map ROM....then, after 2 years of procrastination
on your part trying NOT to spend all that money they want for an upgrade
to the old C-Map ROM you're using now, gets bought by you and actually
shows up in the new position on your display.

Of course, during those 3 years, the bouy boys have moved the damned bouy
12 more times as the tide keeps making changes to the low tide beach the
kids are enjoying, there at Dead Man's Bend. ANY data now available
about Dead Man's Bend on ANY C-Map chart is REAL OLD AND ALWAYS OUT OF
DATE! That's not true of that bouy you show so much disdain for. Its
warning is as instantaneous as it takes the bouy boys to move it.

Please don't tell me you navigate narrow channels with GPS chartplotters.
If you do, I wanna be FAR away from you....there in the dark. Don't
forget to leave the anchor light on when, not if, you're aground to warn
the rest of us.

Now, at some point, technology will overcome the resistance maritime
interests have to its capabilities. Just like AIS is doing now, 10 years
after a ham radio operator invented APRS, there'll come a time when the
gears will grind out a wireless data link, running right off that bouy's
batteries, maybe, but certainly from the shore station wireless data
link. Your chartplotter won't have a $400 CDROM or a $300 chart plug.
It'll have a $400 SUBSCRIPTION, which will, like Norton Internet
Security, allow you to connect to the planet's nav data clearinghouse
server, very profitably run by some overpriced contractor selling you
data your taxes created...you know, like weather data is. Before you go
to the boat, even, you can logon the laptop, or that new wireless-
equipped GPS handheld and they will automatically call the server,
updating their hard drive databases of every shoal on the planet. Your
boat's chart will look exactly like the master chart the bouy boys
updated from THEIR wireless computer aboard the bouy tender, probably
before the bouy anchor touched bottom again.

When you turn on the boat's fancy new GPS chart plotter, it'll spin up
its hard drive, logon to the nav data server, and upgrade itself with all
the latest charts, before you get the AC power cord wound up around the
dock post so you can go sailing. By the time you leave the dock, your
charts will be their charts....not their charts from 3 years ago.

Until that time....PLEASE, stay on THAT side of the bouy, not what's on
your screen!


Are you refering to the buoy before or after the bouy tender boys moved it
because it was in the wrong place?

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Ted" wrote in news:zN40g.2472$An2.2251
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

I was making the point that GPS navigation does not require buoys.

AT some point in the future, when the wireless technology exists where
your chartplotter will connect with the mapping agency for all the
updates, every time you turn it on (sort of like Windows Update does when
you turn your laptop on)...at that point, I would agree...

Better yet, users of the map data could mark locations on the water as they
arrive where the map appears to be incorrect or they could mark a new found
hazard not yet shown on the chart and that information gets uploaded back to
the mapping agency for dissemination in the form of mariner reports until
the problem can be investigated, confirmed and the map officially updated.