wrote:

Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion
is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really
designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive
ruggedized version.

I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a
company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to
the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup
format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email
address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it
market research.

I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating
community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and
marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing
it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are
out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what
features are you looking for?

Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are
inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC
input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards,
and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may
be useful on your boat?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!


If it cannot be used as a satellite antenna pointing controller and
tv receiver, game toy, sound system, battery charging controller and
internet surfer, forget it.

Who wants to fiddle with a computer whilst sailing? Unless maybe if
it can refill a drink by voice command, and take over navigation and
steering completely, without crippling all functions if it develops
a minor heat or humidity glitch.

Conversley, who wants to fiddle with a boat whilst surfing the new
reality?

Naw, I think I'll stick with ropes made from my wifes hair,
meteorology by arthritis, and eatable pets, thanks.

I believe real sailors actually go sailing to get away from all that
crap, like in the good old days, where it was volunteer for naval
service or be dragged off to Devil's Island debtor's prison. Heck, I
don't even like using the radio while adventuring aboard, preferring
to adjust sail trim until I can steer by shifting body weight. The
crew thinks there are too many parades aboard, but who cares?

Besides, soon computers will be "free" in cereal boxes; peel and
stick to your thumbnail, autoimmune programmed, harnessed cancer
t-cell neuron growth connected, voices of Pseudo-God in your head,
stereo visions in your eyes, wireless advertising devices selling
software to synthesise designer drugs from your own metabolism, or
even expensive time out firewall widgets to quell the inundation.
Then, they will become mandatory and subject to licensing
verification inspections.

Security robots will taser on sight anyone without the newest free
and mandatory software and certain subsequent purchase codes.

Gee, I hope the big brother AI misses this post.

Terry K

I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most laptops.
Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative of
energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally destroyed by a
half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The laptop was closed and
in hibernation mode. The water went under it. Everything but the case and
display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not easily
moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple small
wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the back would be oh
so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are available
standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17" UXGA monitor except
on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the internet
cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a backup for when one
of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as well as the component
system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it. I
think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.



wrote in message
ups.com...
Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion
is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really
designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive
ruggedized version.

I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a
company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to
the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup
format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email
address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it
market research.

I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating
community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and
marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing
it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are
out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what
features are you looking for?

Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are
inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC
input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards,
and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may
be useful on your boat?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

johnhh wrote:
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most
laptops. Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative
of energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally
destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The
laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it.
Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not
easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple
small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the
back would be oh so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are
available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17"
UXGA monitor except on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the
internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a
backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as
well as the component system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it.
I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.

You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the
laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors,
the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for
navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage,
I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen!

On 2005-08-20 19:59:49 +1000, "Dennis Pogson"
said:

johnhh wrote:
I believe that solution, properly done, can be far superior to most
laptops. Let me give some observations.

0. Pentium M's are much more powerful than VIAs and very conservative
of energy as well.

1. Most laptops are far too fragile. I just had one totally
destroyed by a half a cup of water spilled on the chart table. The
laptop was closed and in hibernation mode. The water went under it.
Everything but the case and display needed to be replaced.

2. Laptops take up too much space on the chart table and are not
easily moved after you have all the gizmos connected to it. A simple
small wireless keyboard and mouse with a monitor suspended at the
back would be oh so much nicer.

3. For inside the cabin, laptops have better monitors then are
available standalone. At least I haven't been able to find a 17"
UXGA monitor except on laptops.

4. Of course you can't drag your component machine down to the
internet cafe like you can the laptop. But, you need to have a
backup for when one of them dies, so you need a ruggedized laptop as
well as the component system.

5. I can't afford all this crap, let alone the time to administer it.
I think I'll just take my two Garmin 176s and go sailing.

You can overcome some of these problems by using a port replicator with the
laptop, but likewise, I think this is all getting too much for we sailors,
the amount of time I have on passage with only two up is about 5% for
navigation, so why go to all this hassle and expense? On a coastal passage,
I can SEE most of my "waypoints" in real time and in 3D, not on a PC screen!

Once again the voice of reason strikes a resounding note. Passage
planning, ok the computer is great for that. Loading waypoints into a
GPS ok too. But while single handing I'm much too busy to spend time
looking at a PC screen. Even a chart plotter is not really that much
use. So I'll stick with the paper on board and my MKII eyball for the
moment.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

Well, at least I know there is interest out there (and of course, there
are those who aren't interested, thanks for your input too). Thanks
for the great info, everone!

Just some things that I've learned and I'll share.

- Johnhh, the VIA is a little slower, definitely, but I've found it to
be more than sufficient for most everyday tasks, and it exceeds most
hardware requirements for navigation programs (everything I've seen
except for Nobeltec's Admiral "recommended" hardware, it blows away the
minimum requirements). Even Pentium M's can't meet Admiral's
recommended hardware. I've looked at Pentium M, but I think the cost
isn't worth it. It would jack up the price by a couple hundred and the
performance gain isn't really worth it. Of course, people know
"Pentium" though.

- I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4
processors. The problem is power consumption there. The P4 chip
itself can draw 70-90 Watts, my whole system draws ~25W at idle, ~50 at
peak performance. VIA runs cooler and much more efficient.

- Embedded OS is a great idea. I don't know much about Win XP
Embedded, but I'll definitely be looking at that. I know there are
devices that allow you to boot a PC from CF card, just like any IDE
drive, I just thought they were too small for Win XP (the largest I've
seen is 2 GB). Maybe Embedded gets around that.

- Currently, I'm using a 2.5" disk in a shock-resistant mounting
bracket (exactly like you said, Meindert). It's worked well so far.
Power consumption is minimal, and I think negligible if we're talking
about P4 chips. I did an experiment recently, where I installed 2 2.5"
drives, ran a stress test and measured power consumption, then I
removed one drive and ran the same test. I couldn't see a noticeable
difference (on an analog ammeter, maybe I'd have seen a difference on
digital, regarless, it was minimal if anything). The manufacturer says
it consumes .6 W at idle (no measurement at peak), so spinning drives
that aren't being accessed really isn't as big a problem as one might
think, at least not with this drive. One recent customer had 2 drives,
one for everyday access, the other for backup. This kept power
consumption to a minimum.

Eric

- I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4
processors. The problem is power consumption there.

Not completely true. I have a shuttle with an Athelon processor. Bought the Shuttle and processor from New Egg. Uses the heat pipe cooling system and runs at around 2GHz. Fine machine and quite!

HTH

Vic



--
__________________________________________________ ______

Victor Fraenckel - The Windman
victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom
KC2GUI

Home of the WindReader Electronic Theodolite
Read the WIND

I guess it comes down to what is sufficient. I built a VIA M10000 system
for this purpose and am not happy with it. You are going to be very hard
put to compete with one of these 10" Pentium M based laptops that with the
monitor are as small if not smaller than my ITX system, quieter and as
energy efficient. Put it into a port replicate (or not into one) under the
chart table or in a cabinet and you have the same thing only faster and you
can pull it out and take it to the internet cafe.

For now, I am using my monster laptop with the WUXGA display. I don't
intend on using a PC for navigation or anything critical because I don't
trust them enough. I use them for route planning and all that fun stuff.
And least you think I am a technophobe, I'm not, I am a recently retired
software engineer.

That said, I am a PC junky and can't resist toying with all this stuff.
Even not using it for critical functions, I feel the need for at least two
PCs on board if not three. I might start quivering and shaking if the only
one I had died.

By the way, did anyone mention printing? I am using one of those Canon
portables, can't remeber the number right off, but so far it has been
awsome. Battery powered and with bluetooth it lives in a cabinet and when I
need to use it, just pull it out, pop it open, turn it on, put it on the
table with some paper and I'm printing. Thirty seconds from waterproof bag
to printing.

I wish you luck on this poroject. I may be a customer some day.

John

wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, at least I know there is interest out there (and of course, there
are those who aren't interested, thanks for your input too). Thanks
for the great info, everone!

Just some things that I've learned and I'll share.

- Johnhh, the VIA is a little slower, definitely, but I've found it to
be more than sufficient for most everyday tasks, and it exceeds most
hardware requirements for navigation programs (everything I've seen
except for Nobeltec's Admiral "recommended" hardware, it blows away the
minimum requirements). Even Pentium M's can't meet Admiral's
recommended hardware. I've looked at Pentium M, but I think the cost
isn't worth it. It would jack up the price by a couple hundred and the
performance gain isn't really worth it. Of course, people know
"Pentium" though.

- I looked at Shuttle, but they seem to have focused on Pentium 4
processors. The problem is power consumption there. The P4 chip
itself can draw 70-90 Watts, my whole system draws ~25W at idle, ~50 at
peak performance. VIA runs cooler and much more efficient.

- Embedded OS is a great idea. I don't know much about Win XP
Embedded, but I'll definitely be looking at that. I know there are
devices that allow you to boot a PC from CF card, just like any IDE
drive, I just thought they were too small for Win XP (the largest I've
seen is 2 GB). Maybe Embedded gets around that.

- Currently, I'm using a 2.5" disk in a shock-resistant mounting
bracket (exactly like you said, Meindert). It's worked well so far.
Power consumption is minimal, and I think negligible if we're talking
about P4 chips. I did an experiment recently, where I installed 2 2.5"
drives, ran a stress test and measured power consumption, then I
removed one drive and ran the same test. I couldn't see a noticeable
difference (on an analog ammeter, maybe I'd have seen a difference on
digital, regarless, it was minimal if anything). The manufacturer says
it consumes .6 W at idle (no measurement at peak), so spinning drives
that aren't being accessed really isn't as big a problem as one might
think, at least not with this drive. One recent customer had 2 drives,
one for everyday access, the other for backup. This kept power
consumption to a minimum.

Eric

I am with you on this idea. I have been building my own pc's for 13
years now and am working out what to build into a boat I recently
bought. I will be watching this thread with great interest.

I se no reason to take up desktop or tabletop space with a laptop when I
can build the components inside a compartment instead. I'll also have my
own choices for keyboards, displays, and other devices. I am thinking of
working from a Shuttle-X base.

One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary
programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now
and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year.
Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the
time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no
problem spinning up a hard drive.

wrote in message
...
One thing I am considering is being able to run the OS and primary
programs from flash drives while sailing. 1 gig drives are common now
and I expect size will increase and cost will drop over the next year.

Make sure your OS is suitable for that. A normal windows installation will
wear out the flash disk in no time. You'll need XP Embedded to make sure it
does not write registry, log ans swapfiles files to the flashdisk
"millisecond".

Why have a spinning hard drive when it can be avoided for much of the
time? When dockside and doing my heavy duty work and surfing I have no
problem spinning up a hard drive.

A good solution is to mount a 2.5" laptop drive in a shock-absorbing frame
into a 3.5" drive bay. Indrustial computer suppliers carry these. Very
robust.

Meindert

A normal windows installation will
wear out the flash disk in no time.

You have me puzzled here. How does it "wear out" solid state?


You'll need XP Embedded to make
sure it does not write registry, log and swapfiles files to the
flashdisk "millisecond".

What is wrong with writing data to a flash drive? I use them to move
data between computers anyway. They can hold with power off and
unplugged.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying?