Meindert Sprang wrote:
.... so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is
down.

and of you're using Windows...you know it's not if but when it goes down

Gee - Meindert,
Where do you think that might come from?
(Actually, that is a real good idea, but with the number of boats out
there that have one circuit for "radio" and the VHF and the stereo are
both on the same fuse, I'm not sure it would be easy to sell.)
Matt Colie

Meindert Sprang wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.


If those serial ports are to be used for nav instruments, it would be safer
to use a multiplexer, connected to the PC through USB. If the PC fails (OS
crash or nav software crash) all NMEA data is still routed and combined
through the external multiplexer and available for repeaters, GPS and
autopilot, so you don't lose your entire navigation system when the PC is
down.

Meindert

wrote:
This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len,
yeah, I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd
have something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met
some of these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not
impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't
really looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking
into as an accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting
idea. You want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra
external drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of
modularizing as much as possible. We could get this size down really
small if everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage
drives, etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD
just depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another
card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending
on which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into
selling monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he
could easily connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2
monitor solution, costs about $12 (not including the monitors or
trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing
so (please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS
module provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an
all in one PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be
another cable to bring that connection to the outside of the PC case,
but there isn't really a standard for external LVDS (that I can
find). The desktop industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for
connecting an external monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

I'm sure the market will be huge. Of the order of about 30. It's been tried
before, and the guys who tried it eventually took up sailing.

Eric,

Glad you're still here... :-)

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.
Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added
complexity. Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these
be used? I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect
multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want
to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot.
Non-nmea would be my cell phone and my Victron inverter/charger that I
want to monitor/program by pc.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

Bulkhead, that was the term I was looking for, thanks.
The answer is yes. I'd like to connect the peripheral in a simple way,
with having to play the acrobat.
A hub with say 4 connectors to build into the bulkhead would do.
Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding
power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the
show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something
wrong with the power supply.

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).
What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash,
the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts
I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's
"synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including
OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and
running again in a minute. (Maybe this one appeals to the anxiety many
pc-owners have imo about pc-reliability. Combine this with the fact
navigational software and charts become more an more vital (sometimes
even too vital when you ask me), and you have a major reassuring
advantage to offer).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.
Oh, I also want to be sure I'll wake up when my anchor moves: my
anchor alarm should not just "beep" like a scared mouse over 15 feet
away but should really wake me even when sleeping in my bunk after 2/3
nights without much sleep, of course with minimal power consumption.

Regards, Len.









































This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have
something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of
these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on
which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling
monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily
connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution,
costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so
(please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module
provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one
PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to
bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't
really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop
industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external
monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

"Len" wrote in message
...
Eric,

Glad you're still here... :-)

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.
Of course there are multiplexers but I'd like to avoid added
complexity.

But added safety.

Larry mentioned another type of port for nmea. Can't these
be used?

Larry probably mentioned my multiplexers too :-)

I lack real understanding here. All I know I want to connect
multiple nmea talkers like gps, wind, depth, compass, ais, and I want
to let my nav prog talk to my autopilot.

And if your nav program or the computer goes down, you have nothing. With a
multiplexer, you can still feed the GPS data to the autopilot, because for
instance the ones that I produce, automatically fall back to a pass-through
mode where the GPS data directly goes to the autopilot when the connected
computer does not send any data for more than 10 seconds.

Talking of usb, I find this tech somewhat disappointing regarding
power supply. When I want to connect my usb-stick wifi-antenna the
show stops when I use a cable of 3 meters. XP says tehere something
wrong with the power supply.

That is because USB can feed only 500mA to a device. Wifi uses a lot of
power, so I'm not surprised that with 3m of cable, the voltgage drop is too
high.

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).
What I meant was it should be very simple to deal with a hdu-crash,
the biggest risk remaining when the pc is solid state. In my thoughts
I only have external hdu's and would keep say two external hdu's
"synchronized" so when one fails I have a near 100% backup including
OS and installed software I only have to connect my other unit: up and
running again in a minute.

It would be better in this case, to install XP Embedded, which can run from
a CF card without wearing out the limited write cycles of a CF card. The
card can be used write-protected so a crash can NEVER distroy your OS
installation. Put the nav software on the same card and load the charts from
a harddisk or SB stick, which you can easily upgrade. You can even install a
second XP on the harddisk, use this for entertainment while using the CF
installation for navigation only.

Meindert

VIA is too slow. Base it on a pentium M. There are itx boards available
for that processor.


wrote in message
oups.com...
This is some great info, everyone! To answer your question, Len, yeah,
I'm still here!

I posted the question looking for specs for the perfect PC, so I'd have
something to shoot for. I'm glad to say that I've already met some of
these, some are a little more of a challenge, but not impossible.

For instance, I decided early on to use the EPIA mini-ITX platform.
Right now, I'm focused on the MII120000, but different boards can be
used for different purposes.

A few questions/follow ups:

- 6 serial ports is a little tough to do with current PC platforms,
most users don't use them (although we all know that we do!). Not
impossible by any means though.

- a 12V USB hub shouldn't be difficult to find, though I haven't really
looked, it's more of a peripheral. Definitely worth looking into as an
accessory though. A panel-style mount is an interesting idea. You
want to mount it right to the bulkhead in your nav station?

- Len, you mentioned that you want "remote connectors" for the USB.
The USB has to connect to the box somewhere. Do you want to move the
back-panel connectors to the front, or the side or something? To
perhaps limit the need to access the back?

- Also, Len, why an external hard drive? Do you mean an extra external
drive with one built in? This gives me the idea of modularizing as
much as possible. We could get this size down really small if
everything is an add-on (Optical drive, USB hub, storage drives,
etc...).

- as far as entertainment/music, my thought has been that this PC can
be your entertainment center as well. Just run speakers to the
cockpit, or wherever and just play mp3s straight from the PC. DVD just
depends on the optical drive, TV will probably require another card.

- it seems that there is a lot interest in video options. Let me tell
you about something I did for a customer in the past. He had a
standard LCD screen at his nav station, and an all-weather LCD at his
helm. He wanted to see the same image on both screens, but they were
at different resolutions (the helm LCD only supported 800x600).

All we did was use a VGA splitter cable, and I installed a couple of
batch scripts on the desktop to quickly change resolutions depending on
which monitor he was using at the time. I haven't gotten into selling
monitors (yet), but his helm monitor had a USB port, so he could easily
connect a trackball when he needed it. The whole 2 monitor solution,
costs about $12 (not including the monitors or trackball, of course).

I also see some interest in LVDS connections. I looked into that
because I know a competitor is offering an LVDS all weather display,
but from what I can tell, he's the only one in the PC industry doing so
(please correct me if you've seen more than one). The EPIA LVDS module
provides a good connection for a laptop LCD screen (as in an all in one
PC), but not an external monitor. There needs to be another cable to
bring that connection to the outside of the PC case, but there isn't
really a standard for external LVDS (that I can find). The desktop
industry seems to have gone the way of DVI for connecting an external
monitor to a digital video source.

Thanks for everyone's input! Keep it coming!

Eric

"Len" wrote in message
...
On 17 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700, wrote:

Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution?
-------------------------snip----------------
Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Nice to write this letter to santa...

I want a fanless and solid state pc 512 mB memory, 1 gHz cpu with a
stabilized psu. I want it to be small so I can mount it in a small
locker.

I want wifi for hotspot internet acces

I want at least serial ports for connecting :
1 gps
2 ais
3 radar
4 cellphone for backup internet-acces
5 wind/depth/whatever
6 charger/inverter interface)

I want the connections to work optical, no galvanic connections.

I want an USB hub operating on the 12v psu for connecting
hard drive as a external unit
dvd reader/burner as an external unit
digital camera
mp3-player
memory sticks
whatever

In stead of at the back of the pc I want "remote" connectors for this
USB hub. I want to mount these usb-connectors in my panel next to my
chart table so I just stick the connector in the built in connector
next to my screen when I want.

I want a soundcard, for my car radio. I want to play the mp3's through
the car radio and I want to record from the car radio/digital tv
I also want mike-input for skype comms.

I want a 17" lcd screen to look at sitting at my charttable, 12 volts
(from the stabilazed psu) I also want a second lcd (15", bright,
rugged and waterproof but reasonably priced) in the cockpit.
Both with speakers built in. So: I want dual video out for both lcd's.
The one in the cockpit via a long vga cable.

I want to connect 2 trackballs, one mounted on my charttable,one in
the cockpit

Well lets leave at this for the time being.
Are you still there ?

Regards, Len.

I have serviced Northstar 961/962 systems (no longer in production). Shock
mounting the PC to avoid vibration problems to hard drives became necessary,
especially on commercial tugboats with lots of vibration. The fans suck up
all kinds on stuff, like metal filings, etc., that are not electronics
friendly. A fanless system would be great.
How about a plug in board for FAX broadcasts and NavText? Perhaps a GPS plug
in board so only a sensor type antenna would be needed? For the hams, a
plug-in APRS modem and maybe even a 2 meter transceiver on the APRS
frequency for automatic reporting of ship position to the web sites. An
interface for a radar scanner to the PC would be nice, such as the RJ-45
connector that Garmin and others are going to these days, allowing use of
software such as Nobeltec.
12 VDC or ever better 12-32 VDC power supply for the PC would be nice, with
good surge and noise protection.
Maybe down the line an AIS receiver plug in board with software could be
added. Just some thoughts beyond the toys Len already requested.

73
Doug K7ABX

"Len" wrote in message
...
On 17 Aug 2005 11:46:50 -0700, wrote:

snippage

I want at least serial ports for connecting :
1 gps
2 ais
3 radar
4 cellphone for backup internet-acces
5 wind/depth/whatever
6 charger/inverter interface)


An NMEA 0183 multiplexer or a NMEA 2000(R) port would be a better solution
for most or these:
- More reliable (ie other stuff still works when the PC is down)
- Unlimited expandability in the future
- Better ground and isolation management

more snippage

I want a soundcard, for my car radio. I want to play the mp3's through
the car radio and I want to record from the car radio/digital tv
I also want mike-input for skype comms.


All the things a computer can do are nice to have, but if I were planning on
using this computer as a nav instrument, it would be installed and
configured with just the software it needed to perform functions I needed at
the helm, and then locked down - i.e. no internet, no e-mail, no mp3
downloads, no upgrades, and no anti-virus software. After spending $$$ on
the above, reliability will be vastly improved simply by paying $399 for a
Dell Desktop (probably with a faster processor?) to do all those other
non-critical tasks.

Dave.

I see a lot of good ideas from the other posts but the biggest issue I see
is having a LCD screen (or some other technology screen) in the cockpit that
is readable in daylight. I have tried various laptops but none of them
provide sufficient screen intenisty to be readable in bright sunlight. I
know there are some expensivve monitors out there but the monitor should
not cost more than the computer it connects to. So whatever the PC is or
where ever it is located seem to be a secondary issue to having a monitor
that is of use in the cockpit and doesn't cost $$$$.



wrote in message
ups.com...
Most boaters use laptops for onboard computing, but I want to see what
this group thinks about using a more permanent PC solution? My opinion
is that laptops work fine most of the time, but they aren't really
designed for life on the water unless you go with a very expensive
ruggedized version.

I have to be honest, so here's my "full disclosure". I started a
company about a year ago to build and sell marine PCs (not laptops) to
the recreational boating community. Out of respect for the newsgroup
format, I'm not going to advertise here. I'm using my personal email
address, not my business one. I'm just looking for ideas. Call it
market research.

I am interested in the general reaction and acceptance of the boating
community to the idea of replacing their laptops with a more rugged and
marine-focused solution. Would you consider it? Are you aleady doing
it? If not, what kind of features might change your mind? If you are
out there now just looking for the right marine PC system, what
features are you looking for?

Just FYI, my system currently includes "marine" features that are
inspired from my own experiences and research, such as regulated 12VDC
input, shock & vibration resistance, conformally coated circuit boards,
and a small footprint (it's about the size of a shoebox). What else may
be useful on your boat?

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

"Terry Conner" wrote in message ...
I see a lot of good ideas from the other posts but the biggest issue I see
is having a LCD screen (or some other technology screen) in the cockpit that
is readable in daylight.

Have you considered making a hood, like older radar displays and oscilliscopes had? If anyone has done this I would like to hear from them.

Any enlightenment will be appreciated.

Vic

--
__________________________________________________ ______

Victor Fraenckel - The Windman
victorf ATSIGN windreader DOTcom
KC2GUI