"Pete Verdon" d wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected in a circuit?

Which of these circuits?

http://www.verdonet.org.uk/stuff/The...sBatteries.png

A or B?

Pete

Neither!

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one positive pole connected
to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and negative poles must be
connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or electronic gadget that will
cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

CN

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected
to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
negative poles must be
connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will
cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected
to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
negative poles must be
connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will
cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one

positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and

negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or

electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.


In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole,
which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is
more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current
is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one

positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and

negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or

electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.


In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps
or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is
it going?
krj

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one
is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being
higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical
reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the
current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit
outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding
flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank.
It is not
a circuit.

CN
So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow?
If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps?
How do batteries work?

Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons
through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the
electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at
either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at
the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode
and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable
build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves
to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way.
Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons.

In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the
electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to
the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire
connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to
the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire,
lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how
electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode
and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited
amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of
electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The
electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode
are restored to their original state and can again provide full power.

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10
amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery,
where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN
So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read
10 amps?
How do batteries work?

The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery.
Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is
fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons
can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another
chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen.

View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and
hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll
find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons
go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing
and "pow" there they go . . .

A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means
not physical means like a condensor.


Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a
circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative
sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference
between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants
to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go
to a place with fewer electrons.

If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet,
never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there
is no circuit inside the battery.


In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode
to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be
able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This
is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there
is a limited amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels.
The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again
provide full power.

You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no
circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one
is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being
higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical
reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the
current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit
outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding
flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank.
It is not
a circuit.

CN
OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current
flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a
circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the
+ pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition,
current flow.
Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality
something with no proof, especially as a basis of argument), how does a
battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge
the battery with the lower EMF when a light bulb is connected if there
is no current (or electron) flow?
krj

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10
amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery,
where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN
OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to -
in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there
is by definition, current flow.

There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
to a circuit externally to power it.

Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
They go in, they go out, they don't go through.


Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality something with no proof, especially as a basis of
argument), how does a battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge the battery with the lower EMF when a
light bulb is connected if there is no current (or electron) flow?
krj

Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
flow through the battery - only in and out.

Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
not a circuit.

CN

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases
electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit
that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons)
can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of
some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is
not
a circuit.

CN


It is obvious from the above that CN, has absolutly no intelectual
knowledge of how wet cell batteries work, and the chemical reactions
that are involved, in both the charging and discharging of said wet cell
batteries.

He says that electrons are put into a wet cell battery during charging
and then they are released from said battery when discharging to preform
work at the load.

Now, we who have been wondering about his state of Education, surmise
that he never got out of Grammar School, and has a Grammer School
Inteligence view of the Laws of Physics and Chemistry.

Since this is now, obviously the case, it will serve all the rest of us
here to just let him go on thinking that his view is correct, for it
does work for him, and we can move on to weightier questions.

No amount of Posts are ever going to bring CN, into the real world,
because he doesn't have the education to understand the chemical
reactions, and Laws of Physics that apply to the subject at hand.

His simplistic view of the world, works for him, and he see's no reason
to educate himself otherwise. The rest of us know better, but there is
just "NO Hope of charging his brain with the required knowlege". To
high of "Internal Resistance".


Bruce in alaska who can understand "Me's" point
--
add a 2 before @