Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one



positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive
and



negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or



electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.




In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they
will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where
one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes
a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being
higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge
lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical
reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery.
- from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or
current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If
the current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj



Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit
outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such
corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and
an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a
tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current
flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps?
How do batteries work?


The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the
battery.
Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is
fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more
electrons
can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive
another
chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen.

View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and
hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart
and you'll
find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax
paper. Electrons
go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the
outer casing
and "pow" there they go . . .

A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via
chemical means
not physical means like a condensor.


Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons
through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the
electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at
either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical
circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons
at the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the
anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable
build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves
to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way.
Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons.


If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or
worse yet,
never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there
is no circuit inside the battery.
You never heard of "self discharge" of a lead acid battery?


In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the
electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to
the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire
connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get
to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the
wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of
describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through
the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode
and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a
limited amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of
electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The
electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode
are restored to their original state and can again provide full power.


You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no
circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank.

CN
Too stupid for comments!

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

You cannot run current though a battery backwards.


Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.



You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into
shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through
the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it
together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE
electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or
nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current
increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a
battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores
electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN
Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction.
Movement of electrons is called "current flow"

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10
amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery,
where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN
OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to -
in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there
is by definition, current flow.

There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
to a circuit externally to power it.

Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
They go in, they go out, they don't go through.


Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality something with no proof, especially as a basis of
argument), how does a battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge the battery with the lower EMF when a
light bulb is connected if there is no current (or electron) flow?
krj

Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
flow through the battery - only in and out.

Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
not a circuit.

CN

"krj" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

You cannot run current though a battery backwards.


Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.



You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN
Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"


Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.

Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.

CN

CN

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one



positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and



negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or



electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.




In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10
amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery,
where is it going?
krj



Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it
read 10 amps?
How do batteries work?


The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery.
Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is
fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons
can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another
chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen.

View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and
hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll
find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons
go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing
and "pow" there they go . . .

A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means
not physical means like a condensor.


Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a
circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative
sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference
between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons
wants to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and
try to go to a place with fewer electrons.


If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet,
never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there
is no circuit inside the battery.
You never heard of "self discharge" of a lead acid battery?


In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the
anode to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons
will be able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the
way. This is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So
there is a limited amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels.
The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again
provide full power.


You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no
circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank.

CN

Too stupid for comments!

Or, too correct for valid rebuttal . . .

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:



I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive
and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they
will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where
one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards.
You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current
flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a
circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to
the + pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by
definition, current flow.


There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
to a circuit externally to power it.

Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
They go in, they go out, they don't go through.
Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
flow through the battery - only in and out.

Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
not a circuit.

CN
If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from
your solar panel? I fill my gas tank with only one hose. Maybe it's so
that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the
other. That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current
flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the
battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other?
krj

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

You cannot run current though a battery backwards.



Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.




You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into
shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not
through the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it
together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to
STORE electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or
nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current
increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a
battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores
electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN

Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical
reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"



Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.

Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.

CN

CN
Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement
of electrons through the medium within a battery.
krj

"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery

Utter ********.


Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:



I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive
and negative poles must be connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from +
to - in a circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the + pole. If electrons move within the battery,
there is by definition, current flow.


There is only current flow in a circuit. Where you test for flow at
the battery terminal is definitely outside the battery and part
of a circuit. A battery is a dead-end storage device that is connected
to a circuit externally to power it.

Electrons don't move within the battery in a circuit. They power chemical
reactions that store or release electrons. Hence the term, storage battery.
They go in, they go out, they don't go through.
Because there is a circuit between the two batteries which circuit provides
higher voltage at the poles of the battery with lower voltage so electrons
can flow IN to drive chemical reactions which store said electrons and
increase the overall state of charge of the battery. Never do electrons
flow through the battery - only in and out.

Picture lead/acid batteries as a tank, not a circuit, and you'll begin to
understand. They are used to power circuits but they, in themselves, are
not a circuit.

CN
If it is like a tank, why do you have to connect the negative lead from your solar panel?

Good question. You connect the negative lead so the chemical reactions can
proceed. There is one chemical reaction on the positive plates and another on
the negative plates. They must run together or they won't run at all.

I fill my gas tank with only one hose.

But, if you didn't allow a way for air to escape, you would not be
able to fill your tank.

Maybe it's so that the electrons from one side of the solar panel can get back to the other.

Correct because the solar panel uses photons from the sun to drive the
current round and round and does not store electrons like a battery does.

That's called a "complete circuit" which is necessary for current flow (or electron flow). If the electrons don't move through the
battery, how do they get from one side of the circuit to the other?

Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery. They only reside
on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit). When the
separated plates are connected by a circuit outside the battery another set
of chemical reactions can then occur which reactions produce electrons as this
set of reactions goes to completion via the circuit outside the battery.

The lack of understanding of what happens inside a battery around these
groups is appalling. It's basic chemistry and not that difficult to comprehend.

CN

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message .. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

You cannot run current though a battery backwards.



Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.




You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN

Electrons must move within the battery to create the chemical reaction. Movement of electrons is called "current flow"



Movement of electrons in a chemical reaction is not called current flow.

Movement of electrons *in a circuit* is called current flow.

CN

CN
Now we are talking semantics. So you do admit that there is a movement of electrons through the medium within a battery.
krj

I admit no such thing. Electrons move into and out of the plates via chemical
reactions. Electrons don't move through the plates as in from positive plate
to negative plate through the media. If this were the case, there would be
no potential and no battery.

CN