"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected
to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
negative poles must be
connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will
cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one
positive pole connected
to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and
negative poles must be
connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or
electronic gadget that will
cause current to flow through the entire circuit.

In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

"Keith" wrote in message ...
In message ,
=?Windows-1252?Q?Capt. _Neal=AE?= writes

"Me" wrote in message
...

I hope this simple example will reduce your fogged thinking.

and the Dufus chimes in again, with more off the wall BS.....

Why not refute my example instead of calling me names.?

I thought you were a pretty good troll, Cap'n..


The prat responding to you makes you look like a puking infant, if one
adopts trolling criteria..
--
Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd



I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one

positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and

negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or

electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.


In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole,
which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is
more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher
than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction
reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current
is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and incorrect!
How can some people's minds be so ineffective at thinking?

I know it is pointless to argue with you but:

Perhaps you ******s would understand it better using flashlight D cells
as an example. Take one D cell that is half charged (Ni-Cad) and put it
into
a two-cell flashlight in the company of another NI-Cad) D cell that is
fully
charged and turn on the switch. The bulb will light and current will
pass through the circuit. As well as working to light the bulb, the
fully-charged cell will discharge into the half charge cell until
the voltage in both cells equalizes.

Perhaps you could try to envision in which direction current flows through
the empty cell in this example and next, try to envision in which direction
current flows when *charging* a cell. Or even better: try this example for
yourself.

I hope this helps.

Certainly not.

Meindert


So even an engineer might understand. . .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Engineers look at a battery as a physical object while an electrician looks
at it as a container for a chemical reactions that store and release electricity.

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most dumb
engineers claim.

Read the above link carefully and click on all the links and perhaps you
will understand the error of your thinking.

You're welcomd.

CN

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one

positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and

negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or

electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.


In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps
or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery, where is
it going?
krj

Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one
is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being
higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical
reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the
current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit
outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding
flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank.
It is not
a circuit.

CN
So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow?
If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read 10 amps?
How do batteries work?

Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons
through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the
electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative sides at
either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at
the anode. This results in an electrical difference between the anode
and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable
build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants to rearrange themselves
to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way.
Electrons repel each other and try to go to a place with fewer electrons.

In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the
electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode to
the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire
connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be able to get to
the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire,
lighting the light bulb along the way. This is one way of describing how
electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode
and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there is a limited
amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of
electrons using another power source, such as solar panels. The
electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode
are restored to their original state and can again provide full power.

"krj" wrote in message . ..
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message . ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. - from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10
amps or current is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the current is not flowing through the battery,
where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas (electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank. It is not
a circuit.

CN
So, where is the 10 amps going? Are you saying there is no current flow? If I put an ampmeter is series with the line will it read
10 amps?
How do batteries work?

The current is running chemical reactions that are housed inside the battery.
Electrons are being stored by these chemical reactions. When the battery is
fully charged (chemical reaction have run their course) then no more electrons
can be stored. If you continue to cram current in it begins to drive another
chemical reaction - it electrolyses the water into hydrogen and ozygen.

View a lead/acid battery as a condensor of sorts. A condensor can take and
hold a charge but there in no circuit inside the thing. Take one apart and you'll
find a long piece of aluminum foil rolled up with a long piece of wax paper. Electrons
go in and are stored. To let them back out just short the center to the outer casing
and "pow" there they go . . .

A lead/acid battery stores electrons (storage battery - get it?) via chemical means
not physical means like a condensor.


Electricity, as you probably already know, is the flow of electrons through a conductive path like a wire. This path is called a
circuit.

Batteries have three parts, an anode (-), a cathode (+), and the electrolyte. The cathode and anode (the positive and negative
sides at either end of a traditional battery) are hooked up to an electrical circuit.

The chemical reactions in the battery causes a build up of electrons at the anode. This results in an electrical difference
between the anode and the cathode. You can think of this difference as an unstable build-up of the electrons. The electrons wants
to rearrange themselves to get rid of this difference. But they do this in a certain way. Electrons repel each other and try to go
to a place with fewer electrons.

If there was a circuit inside, don't you think it would discharge, or worse yet,
never charge to begin with? It doesn't discharge because it can't - there
is no circuit inside the battery.


In a battery, the only place to go is to the cathode. But, the electrolyte keeps the electrons from going straight from the anode
to the cathode within the battery. When the circuit is closed (a wire connects the cathode and the anode) the electrons will be
able to get to the cathode. In the picture above, the electrons go through the wire, lighting the light bulb along the way. This
is one way of describing how electrical potential causes electrons to flow through the circuit.

However, these electrochemical processes change the chemicals in anode and cathode to make them stop supplying electrons. So there
is a limited amount of power available in a battery.

When you recharge a battery, you change the direction of the flow of electrons using another power source, such as solar panels.
The electrochemical processes happen in reverse, and the anode and cathode are restored to their original state and can again
provide full power.

You don't change the flow of electrons inside the battery because no
circuit exists there to do so. You just add them to the tank.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"krj" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

I'm talking about two 12v batteries in a series circuit meaning one


positive pole connected

to the negative pole of the other battery. The left over positive and


negative poles must be

connected to some sort of circuit and load such as a light bulb or


electronic gadget that will

cause current to flow through the entire circuit.



In such a circuit, neither battery will charge the other, they will
only be
discharged together through the load.
The same current will flow through both batteries, and in both
batteries you
can regard the current as "flowing out" of the positive pole.

To charge a battery, current must be flowing "into" the positive
pole, which
can only happen if you connect two batteries in parallel, where one
is more
discharged than the other.

Meindert


You are wrong. You cannot run current though a battery backwards. You
charge with a charging
source that has higher voltage than the battery and by wiring it so
there exists a complete
circuit.

When I connect my photovoltaic to my 12v battery the battery takes a
charge because the
photovoltaics operate at 16v at ten amps current. The 16v, being
higher than the 12v in the
batteries causes a chemical reaction to occur between the sponge lead
and the solid lead
and the acid electrolyte and electrons are stored The chemical
reaction reverses when the
photovoltaics are removed and a load placed upon the batteries and
electrons are released.
Current never goes backwards in the battery.

This is a common misconception and I'm very surprised so-called
engineers fall prey to it.

CN

Let's see, +16v from the solar panel to the +12.7v on the battery. -
from the solar panel connected to - on the battery. 10 amps or current
is flowing. Which way through the battery is the current? If the
current is not flowing through the battery, where is it going?
krj


Duh, Current NEVER flows through the battery. A battery stores and
releases electricity
chemically. There is no circuit passing through the battery. The only
circuit that exists is
external to the battery. View a battery as a gasoline tank gas
(electrons) can be added
to the tank or removed from the tank. It's a storage device and not a
pipe of some sort
that has flow one way or the other inside it.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Note how current flow is only shown to be reversed in the circuit
outside the
battery when charged. Never, at any time is there any such corresponding
flow
or circuitry inside the battery. There is but a series of plates and an
electrolyte
that stores or releases electrons. A battery is a tank and only a tank.
It is not
a circuit.

CN
OK, what do you call this "release of electrons"? Conventional current
flow is usually referred to as "current flowing from + to - in a
circuit. In reality is the movement of electrons from the - pole to the
+ pole. If electrons move within the battery, there is by definition,
current flow.
Going back to your previous postulation (to assume the truth or reality
something with no proof, especially as a basis of argument), how does a
battery with higher EMF in series with a battery of a lower EMF charge
the battery with the lower EMF when a light bulb is connected if there
is no current (or electron) flow?
krj

"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .
Capt. Neal® wrote:

You cannot run current though a battery backwards.

Oh dear the ammeter on my charger must be telling lies then. It says I
can run about 25-50A through the battery backwards.


You are guilty of misreading your ammeter.

One connects an ammeter in series, does one not? (let's not get into shunts)

What you are reading is current flowing into the battery - not through the battery.
A battery has no internal circuitry that connects the whole of it together. It is but
a series of little dead ends where chemical reactions are used to STORE electrons.

When the battery is fully charged, the current drops to little or nothing unless
you apply too much current at too high a voltage and then you see the
water becoming electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen and the current increasing.

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery
unless there is a short or something. A serviceable battery stores electrons. These
go in or out but never through.

CN