"Pete Verdon" d wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse
the current as most dumb engineers claim.

Oh? So how come the little arrow marked "I" (current) has changed direction between the third and fourth pictures?


Duh! That is an EXTERNAL circuit. Note how there is never an arrow
shown inside the battery - only chemical reactions shown because
there is no internal circuit.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Me" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge
cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are
connected
in a circuit?

CN


If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......


I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in
series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on
the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them
with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the
electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven
the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a
circuit.

CN

But electrons don't flow through a battery! Your words.
krj

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

So even an engineer might understand. . .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../leadacid.html

Engineers look at a battery as a physical object while an electrician
looks
at it as a container for a chemical reactions that store and release
electricity.

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from
releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most
dumb
engineers claim.

Read the above link carefully and click on all the links and perhaps you
will understand the error of your thinking.

Well, I did. Lucky for me, I studied chemisty as well. And what do I see in
the second picture?
The decomposition of lead and sulphuric acid on the left produces, whait a
minute... electrons!! And wait, what do I see? On the right side, these
electrons are used to combine lead oxide and sulphuric acid into
leadsulphate and water. Sooooo, I see electrons flowing THROUGH the innards
of the battery.
Care to argue with that?

Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no flow.

CN

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® the biggest dfufus walking wrote:

Higher voltage than a fully charge battery can supply, when applied to the
battery terminals drives the chemical reaction and changes it from releasing
electrons to storing electrons but does not reverse the current as most dumb
engineers claim.

I suppose that you think that a charged battery has more electrons in it
than a discharged battery? Right? Is this what your saying above?
Please explain, so that we all can undestand what you exact preception
of this point is.


Negative sarge! A charged battery has used electrons provided for it in
the charging process to change the chemical composition of the plates
so these same plates can again change their composition through chemical
reactions during the discharge cycle to provide electrons. Electrons aren't
rally stored as they are in a capacitor. Potential to release electrons is
stored by chemical reactions that change the plate metal composition.

CN

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message . uk...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Again, electrons don't move THROUGH the battery.

Correct. Electrons DON'T move through the battery, but charge does.

They only reside
on physically separated plates via chemical reaction (not a circuit).

Incorrect. That's what happens in a capacitor, but not in a battery.

In a capacitor, electrons are stored on one plate and "holes" on the
other, and no electrons move THROUGH the capacitor. Nevertheless charge
APPEARS to move through it because it goes in via one wire and out via
the other, but really the charge is only stored on the plates and does
not travel across the gap. When you DIScharge a capacitor, the charge
comes back out again, but still no charge travels directly from one
plate to the other within the unit.

A battery is different. It also stores charge, but not by accumulating
more and more electrons on one plate and holes on the other, but rather
by arranging for chemical changes to occur not only on both plates, but
also in the electrolyte.

True.

As shown in hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/leadacid.html
which you pointed us to, a charged battery starts off with the electrolyte
of sulphuric acid, i.e. a soup of negative sulphate ions and positive
hydrogen ions, and with PbO2 on one plate and Pb on the other. When
the plates are connected via an external circuit, the sulphate ions are
absorbed equally on each plate, in a reaction which at the Pb end
generates PbSO4 and liberates electrons and H+ ions, and at the PbO2 end
also generates PbSO4 and absorbs electrons and H+ ions. To sustain this
reaction, the electrons travel from one plate to the other on the outside
of the battery, via the circuit wire, while the H+ ions travel from one
plate to the other internally, through the electrolyte.

Therefore charge does travel through the battery. We have a complete
circuit, with external flow of electrons and internal flow of H+ ions.

There's where I disagree. Charge does not 'travel through' the inside
of a battery. There is no conductor only chemical reactions that change
the composition of the plates. Depending on whether the battery is
being charged or discharged these reactions run one way or the other.

Note, I said the reactions run one way or the other. I did not say the
electricity flows one way or the other. There is a difference which
all you naysayers fail to comprehend. Chemical reactions change
the plate composition. Plate composition is responsible for the current
that is noted in the circuit *outside* the battery. There is no corresponding
circuit inside the battery. If there was the battery would immediately
short out internally.


During charging, the same thing happens, electrons are "pumped" back
into one plate and sucked out of the other, which causes the hydrogen
ions to travel through the electrolyte in the opposite direction to
that in which they travelled while the battery was being discharged.


Nothing in the way of current travels back and forth in the electrolyte.
The electrolyte is there only as a medium for chemical reaction not as
a highway or path for electrons to travel.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in
series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on
the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them
with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the

*******eletrons flowing through it******** in the circuit driven by the
good battery will have driven

From the mouths of babes...or, in this case, cretins. Thus does the
good Cap'n put paid to his own ludicrous 'theory'. Methinks the boy may
have seen the light :-) Oops, sorry, had an attack of blind screamin'
optimism there for a moment.

Keith

"Me" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

I'm not trolling here. I'm attempting to educate some folks who need it.

CN

Ever heard of "blind leading the blind", Dufus? You couldn't educate
your way out of "Wet Paper Bag".....


Maybe so but with such dense students is it any wonder?
Stephen Hawking couldn't make any headway with this sorry lot.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Care to argue with that?


Easy to argue with that. Electrons only "flow" in a conductor. A chemical
reaction is NOT a conductor. Electrons don't flow in a chemical reaction.

Duh, do a Google search on "Redox" reactions. Electron flow is exactly
what's happening.

A chemical reaction is a chemical reaction.

These particular chemical reactions just happen to change the metal
composition
in such a way as to change back and forth metals that store or release
electrons
up the plates and out the top and not along a circuit through the
electrolyte.
There is no "flow" in the traditional sense of the word between the
positive
and negative plates. No circuit. Where there is no circuit there is no
flow.

Dude, you've been draggin' your appendage in the dirt so long on this
one, you could see the lines from Soyuz. Give it up. Cretin.

Hope this helps,

Keith

"krj" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:


"Me" wrote in message ...

In article ,
Capt. Neal® wrote:

Are you trying to claim that a battery in certain state of discharge cannot
be charged by a battery that is fully charged if the batteries are connected
in a circuit?

CN


If they are "Series Connected", that is exactly what I am saying, and
claiming, and all your Dufus Theories, will not change the Physical
Laws involved.

Me who wonders if you are going to answer "Bruce in alaska"'s
question......


I think I just answered that one of will soon if I missed it.

Do something for me. Take a flashlight that uses two AA batteries in series and put
a discharged ni-cad AA cell and a fully charged ni-cad into it. Turn on the switch and
let it run for about ten minutes. Remove the batteries and check them with a volt
meter. You will find the dead cell is no longer dead. Some of the electrons flowing
through it in the circuit driven by the good battery will have driven the chemical
reaction in the direction that stores electrons.

The very same thing will happen with two 12v batteries in series in a circuit.

CN

But electrons don't flow through a battery! Your words.

Thanks for pointing out that inconsistency. My bad.

Semantics again, but you are correct. I should have said some of the electrons
flowing through the circuit (external) will drive the chemical reaction in the
discharged battery so it's state of charge will be increased.

Even though the positive and negative poles are on opposite ends of an AA
cell, electricity does not really flow through from end to end as there is
no internal circuit as such - just chemical reactions as in a lead/acid battery.

But let's not miss the point by pointing out semantics discrepancies. The fact
is the discharged cell will take on some charge from the circuit. The same
goes for two 12v lead/acid batteries in a circuit.

CN

"krj" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Gary Schafer" wrote in message ...

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:33:47 -0400, Capt. Neal®
wrote:


"Steve Firth" wrote in message .. .

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Never, at any time, does electricity flow THROUGH the internals of a battery


Utter ********.



Utter truth. A lead/acid yacht battery stores electrical potential in the plates via chemical reaction.
If there was a circuit within the battery it would not take or store a charge.


CN


Maybe you would like to explain to us how current gets from one cell
in a battery to the next so that each cell gets charged when a charger
is hooked to the battery.



Duh! The plates are hardwired together and connected to either the positive
or negative poles, but not to each other, as would be the case in the minds
of those claiming an internal circuit.


I am also still waiting for you to explain how one discharged cell in
a battery gets charged from the other cells in the battery by only
putting a load on the battery. As I am sure you know that discharged
cell will be trying to get charged with it's positive terminal hooked
to the negative terminal of the cell that is supposed to be doing the
charging.


Duh, since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates but
not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa, to make a circuit as
some claim, and if one cell is discharged to say 1.5 volts while connected
to cells charged to 2.2 volts in a circuit with some sort of load between
the positive and negative battery terminals the discharged cell takes on
a charge just as if a battery charger were connected. The discharged
cell doesn't know anything other than the higher voltage is reversing it's
chemical reaction from a discharging reaction to a charging reaction.

If the battery was a conductor internally, tell me why as you charge
a discharged battery the amperage it takes gets less and less until it
tapers down to almost nothing. If the cells were connected by a circuit
inside the amperage would be constant.

CN


If "since the positive plates and the negative plates in each cell are
hard wired together with all the other positive and negative plates
but not hardwired negative to positive and vice versa" how does a battery ever acheive 12 volts. That would put all the cells
in parallel and since a lead acid wet cell is 2.2 volts, on average, the battery would only have 2.2 volts.
krj

Boy are you dense! The individual CELLs (consisting of a series of plates)
are wired in series or they would not add up to 12 volts. But this does not
mean the PLATES are wired in series. Plates are either positive or negative
and exist independently of each other. Only chemical reactions interact with
them. Wires do not.

CN