In the case of ICOM, I suspect that was a marketing move and a
good one. Paying an extra $200 for the ham enabled version was
silly, especially since the method of enabling the ham bands was just
a simple software upload. The cloning cable was simple to make and
the required software became generally available for nothing.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"krj" wrote in message
...
Doug,
The Icom M710 (since 2002) and the M802 both have the ham bands as
standard.
krj

Doug Dotson wrote:

It is interesting that the SG-2000 is type accepted and is "open"
yet an "open" ICOM is not. I don't really believe this is true.

Doug, k3qt
s/v CAllista

"chuck" wrote in message
...

Hello Bruce,

Don't mean to be picking but I'd like to be very clear on this. Are you
saying that all of the owners of "open" Icom "type accepted" radios who
operate these radios on marine frequencies are operating illegally
because the radios are "open"? Are you certain that the type acceptance
does not include an open version? Is the SGC 2000 being sold in violation
of the law then?

Appreciate the info, Bruce.

Regards,

Chuck


Bruce in Alaska wrote:

In article , chuck
wrote:



We probably need a more carefully worded statement of just what type
acceptance means in this regard (VFOs). Or are you suggesting that
"open" versions of the type-accepted marine radios are no longer
type-accepted?

Regards,

Chuck


Yes I am stating that as a "Fact", that "opened" versions of "Type
Accepted" Radios are not still Type Accepted. The owner, or operator,
is not allowed to change ANY Major Operational Charactoristic of
a "Type Accepted" radio and still have a "Valid Claim" of Type
Acceptance. This is so stated in the FCC's Rules that detail
what is allowed and what spec's are required to meet "Type Acceptance"
by the FCC Chief Engineer, and his Lab. Just doing the required testing
of a radio, takes a couple of months, for MF/HF SSB Radios, and that
doesn't include any Modifications required to get the radio into
compliance. Been there, Done that, and it AIN't EASY........


Bruce in alaska who has worked BOTH sides of this issue......

But it is type accepted for both marine and ham.
krj

Doug Dotson wrote:

In the case of ICOM, I suspect that was a marketing move and a
good one. Paying an extra $200 for the ham enabled version was
silly, especially since the method of enabling the ham bands was just
a simple software upload. The cloning cable was simple to make and
the required software became generally available for nothing.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"krj" wrote in message
...

Doug,
The Icom M710 (since 2002) and the M802 both have the ham bands as
standard.
krj

Doug Dotson wrote:


It is interesting that the SG-2000 is type accepted and is "open"
yet an "open" ICOM is not. I don't really believe this is true.

Doug, k3qt
s/v CAllista

"chuck" wrote in message
...


Hello Bruce,

Don't mean to be picking but I'd like to be very clear on this. Are you
saying that all of the owners of "open" Icom "type accepted" radios who
operate these radios on marine frequencies are operating illegally
because the radios are "open"? Are you certain that the type acceptance
does not include an open version? Is the SGC 2000 being sold in violation
of the law then?

Appreciate the info, Bruce.

Regards,

Chuck


Bruce in Alaska wrote:


In article , chuck
wrote:




We probably need a more carefully worded statement of just what type
acceptance means in this regard (VFOs). Or are you suggesting that
"open" versions of the type-accepted marine radios are no longer
type-accepted?

Regards,

Chuck


Yes I am stating that as a "Fact", that "opened" versions of "Type
Accepted" Radios are not still Type Accepted. The owner, or operator,
is not allowed to change ANY Major Operational Charactoristic of
a "Type Accepted" radio and still have a "Valid Claim" of Type
Acceptance. This is so stated in the FCC's Rules that detail
what is allowed and what spec's are required to meet "Type Acceptance"
by the FCC Chief Engineer, and his Lab. Just doing the required testing
of a radio, takes a couple of months, for MF/HF SSB Radios, and that
doesn't include any Modifications required to get the radio into
compliance. Been there, Done that, and it AIN't EASY........


Bruce in alaska who has worked BOTH sides of this issue......

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:40:33 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote:

This has absolulty nothing to do with the IMD Spec for Type Acceptance.
IMD is not Frequency Stability.

=====================================

Bruce, does the IMD spec speak to audio clarity, off channel
interference or both?

In article , chuck
wrote:

Hello Bruce,

Don't mean to be picking but I'd like to be very clear on
this. Are you saying that all of the owners of "open" Icom
"type accepted" radios who operate these radios on marine
frequencies are operating illegally because the radios are
"open"? Are you certain that the type acceptance does not
include an open version? Is the SGC 2000 being sold in
violation of the law then?

Appreciate the info, Bruce.

Regards,

Chuck


Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article , chuck
wrote:


We probably need a more carefully worded statement of just
what type acceptance means in this regard (VFOs). Or are you
suggesting that "open" versions of the type-accepted marine
radios are no longer type-accepted?

Regards,

Chuck


Yes I am stating that as a "Fact", that "opened" versions of "Type
Accepted" Radios are not still Type Accepted. The owner, or operator,
is not allowed to change ANY Major Operational Charactoristic of
a "Type Accepted" radio and still have a "Valid Claim" of Type
Acceptance. This is so stated in the FCC's Rules that detail
what is allowed and what spec's are required to meet "Type Acceptance"
by the FCC Chief Engineer, and his Lab. Just doing the required testing
of a radio, takes a couple of months, for MF/HF SSB Radios, and that
doesn't include any Modifications required to get the radio into
compliance. Been there, Done that, and it AIN't EASY........


Bruce in alaska who has worked BOTH sides of this issue......

Lets make this very clear.

The SGC-2000 IS Type Accepted and therefor can be used legally in both
the Marine and Ham Radio Services, as long as it is UNMODIFIED from the
original factory configuration.

Any other Marine Radio that is Type Accepted can be used in Marine or
Ham Radio Service, as long as it is UNMODIFIED from it's original factory
configuration.

If a Marine Radio that is Type Accepted is then subsequently MODIFIED
by anyone other than the OEM, it is NOT considered Type Accepted any
longer, by the FCC, as it is now MODIFIED, and therefor must go thru
the Type Acceptance Procedure again to qualify for Type Acceptance.

Any MODIFICATION to the radio that changes it's basic configuration
or Operating Charactoristics would invalidate the Type Acceptance for
that radio.

"Opening" a radio is considered such a MODIFACTION, as it requires one
to actually take the covers off and change something mechanically inside
the radio, itself, thus altering the FACTORY OEM Configuration.

There are ways around this Type Acceptace modifacation issue. Mostly
it is thru Undocumented Control Features that are built in to the User
Interface that "open" the radio without any MODIFICATION to it. The SEA
Radios all have a "TEST Mode" that is entered into via a Special Key
Sequence from the front panel. This is allowable, as the Test Mode is
not a MODIFICATION of the radio, but an "Undocumented Feature" as the
radio is still in "FACTORY" OEM condition.

There, NOW that should be VERY Clear for anyone who can read, and
comprehend, the King's English.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

It is interesting that the SG-2000 is type accepted and is "open"
yet an "open" ICOM is not. I don't really believe this is true.

Doug, k3qt
s/v CAllista

"chuck" wrote in message
...
Hello Bruce,

Don't mean to be picking but I'd like to be very clear on this. Are you
saying that all of the owners of "open" Icom "type accepted" radios who
operate these radios on marine frequencies are operating illegally because
the radios are "open"? Are you certain that the type acceptance does not
include an open version? Is the SGC 2000 being sold in violation of the
law then?

Appreciate the info, Bruce.

Regards,

Chuck


Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article , chuck
wrote:


We probably need a more carefully worded statement of just what type
acceptance means in this regard (VFOs). Or are you suggesting that "open"
versions of the type-accepted marine radios are no longer type-accepted?

Regards,

Chuck


Yes I am stating that as a "Fact", that "opened" versions of "Type
Accepted" Radios are not still Type Accepted. The owner, or operator, is
not allowed to change ANY Major Operational Charactoristic of
a "Type Accepted" radio and still have a "Valid Claim" of Type
Acceptance. This is so stated in the FCC's Rules that detail
what is allowed and what spec's are required to meet "Type Acceptance"
by the FCC Chief Engineer, and his Lab. Just doing the required testing
of a radio, takes a couple of months, for MF/HF SSB Radios, and that
doesn't include any Modifications required to get the radio into
compliance. Been there, Done that, and it AIN't EASY........


Bruce in alaska who has worked BOTH sides of this issue......



You can believe anything that you want, but the facts are against you.

Me

In article ,
krj wrote:

But it is type accepted for both marine and ham.
krj

Ham Radios are NOT Type Accepted. They just need to be in compliance
with 47CFRPart 15, like all other RF Radiation Sources. That is to say
Ham Radios, but Ham Radio Amplifiers in the MF/HF Range MUST be Type
Accepted to be sold in the USA.


Bruce in Alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:40:33 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote:

This has absolulty nothing to do with the IMD Spec for Type Acceptance.
IMD is not Frequency Stability.

=====================================

Bruce, does the IMD spec speak to audio clarity, off channel
interference or both?


IMD = Intermodulation Distortion
A Spec for Transmitters, and it is a very HARD Spec to design for, and
PROVE, via Type Acceptance Testing for General Coverage (1.8 - 30 Mhz)
transmitters. There is a significant variation in parts used in the
post Power Amplifier Filtering Systems, of these radios, and to get
the required IMD Spec, for all these various filters and bands, for
all the production radios isn't an easy trick, especially for the radios
that you MUST submit to the FCC Lab for Type Acceptance.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:50:19 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote:

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:40:33 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote:

This has absolulty nothing to do with the IMD Spec for Type Acceptance.
IMD is not Frequency Stability.

=====================================

Bruce, does the IMD spec speak to audio clarity, off channel
interference or both?


IMD = Intermodulation Distortion
A Spec for Transmitters, and it is a very HARD Spec to design for, and
PROVE, via Type Acceptance Testing for General Coverage (1.8 - 30 Mhz)
transmitters. There is a significant variation in parts used in the
post Power Amplifier Filtering Systems, of these radios, and to get
the required IMD Spec, for all these various filters and bands, for
all the production radios isn't an easy trick, especially for the radios
that you MUST submit to the FCC Lab for Type Acceptance.


Bruce in alaska

A little clarification:
Intermod distortion is usually refered to as unwanted inband products
produced by the mixing of different rf frequencies that are closely
spaced (audio produced). Mixing together that produce unwanted signals
within the audio pass band and in adjacent channels. The main
contributor to this type of distortion is non linearity in one or more
RF power amplifier stages.

This type of distortion can cause rough sounding audio on a signal.
The bigger problem is that it causes splatter on adjacent channels.

The post amplifier filters do nothing for this type of intermod
reduction. They do however reduce second and third harmonics of the
wanted signal which is another strict requirement of commercial type
accepted radios.

There can also be other unwanted mixing products produced in a radio
as the result of other types of intermod. These are commonly referred
to as spurious signals. These usually result from non linear stages
mixing signals to produce signals significantly removed from the
wanted signal. The output filter may or may not help with this type of
unwanted product depending on where it falls.
These can be tough to get rid of at times. The spec for commercial
type accepted radios is tougher on this also.

Regards
Gary

chuck wrote in :

And of course, there is the SGC 2000.


Yeah, but SGC doesn't count because you can't keep one of them out of the
shop long enough to be a problem....(c;

Just stirring the pot. Every one I've seen just sucked.

chuck wrote in :

Or are you
suggesting that "open" versions of the type-accepted marine
radios are no longer type-accepted?


Hmm....Sorry I didn't see this sooner. We had Riley Hollingsworth, Chief
Council for Amateur Radio of the FCC Enforcement Division at our hamfest
last weekend. I could have put this question to him.

My feeling is that any radio that will transmit out-of-band for a
particular service PROBABLY is no longer acceptable in the eyes of the FCC,
especially radios designed to be operated by non-technical
operators.....taxi drivers, firemen, cops, boaters, etc. The entire reason
the radios are type accepted this way is to prevent these radios from
interfering with other services they are not licensed to transmit on.

I do, however, think all Marine HF radios should be channlized in such a
way that they CAN transmit on the ham radio marine defacto net channels,
for use in emergencies, such as 14.300. The Icom M-802 has this channel,
and others, in the ham bands but will not transmit on them until you open
the transmitter up, probably in violation of some FCC regs.

Mr Hollingsworth's speech was most interesting at the hamfest. Ham radio's
greatest threat, right now, is Broadband Over Powerline interference, which
just wipes out whole ham bands in the HF spectrum from use anywhere it has
been implemented. This should also be of interest to boaters in distress
as ham stations monitoring the maritime ham nets won't be able to hear your
distress calls over the racket from the local power company broadband
internet provider. How stupid and awful. They zap a cable operator if his
coax radiates, but not some big bribing power company conglomerate. Go
figure....follow the money?