Since it is harder to change headsails with a roller rig, I've found that
sail plan and size is more important than I've heard discussed.

My E32 came with big 150% Genoa on the theory that it would do everything.
The problem was that, when rolled up to the size appropriate for the typical
strong wind, it lost too much shape and had too much bulk rolled on the head
stay for the boat to go to windward well. I therefore had to carry a
working jib in case I was ever faced with a long beat to windward and go
through the whole swapping routine. Changing headsails on a roller rig is
harder not just because of the foil set up but because a "do everything"
roller Genoa has to be of heavier cloth to stand up to the strains when
reefed and the rolling. Add luff foam and leach sun cover and It makes for
a big bulky sail bag and hard work bagging on the foredeck.

I had my new headsail built last winter cut to 135% size with a very high
clew. The latter feature makes sailing in congested waters vastly more
enjoyable and safer at a performance penalty I would only notice in a race
with an identical boat. The area reduction means that the sail will still
have decent shape when reefed down to size for 20 - 25 knot winds. I really
haven't noticed any performance difference with the full sail plan that I
can tie to the reduction in overlap.

I no longer carry the working jib although I will put it back on board for
any long trips that might involved long beats in 25 knot plus winds. I used
to change jibs a couple times a month as different weather systems went
through but, no more.

The E32 is a bit on the tender side so these sizes are not a guide to all
boats. If you are ordering a new roller headsail, figure out the jib size
for winds in the low 20's and tell your sailmaker to make the full size such
that you will still have decent shape when rolled down that amount.

--
Roger Long

On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 06:06:35 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Since it is harder to change headsails with a roller rig, I've found that
sail plan and size is more important than I've heard discussed.

My E32 came with big 150% Genoa on the theory that it would do everything.
The problem was that, when rolled up to the size appropriate for the typical
strong wind, it lost too much shape and had too much bulk rolled on the head
stay for the boat to go to windward well. I therefore had to carry a
working jib in case I was ever faced with a long beat to windward and go
through the whole swapping routine. Changing headsails on a roller rig is
harder not just because of the foil set up but because a "do everything"
roller Genoa has to be of heavier cloth to stand up to the strains when
reefed and the rolling. Add luff foam and leach sun cover and It makes for
a big bulky sail bag and hard work bagging on the foredeck.

I had my new headsail built last winter cut to 135% size with a very high
clew. The latter feature makes sailing in congested waters vastly more
enjoyable and safer at a performance penalty I would only notice in a race
with an identical boat. The area reduction means that the sail will still
have decent shape when reefed down to size for 20 - 25 knot winds. I really
haven't noticed any performance difference with the full sail plan that I
can tie to the reduction in overlap.

I no longer carry the working jib although I will put it back on board for
any long trips that might involved long beats in 25 knot plus winds. I used
to change jibs a couple times a month as different weather systems went
through but, no more.

The E32 is a bit on the tender side so these sizes are not a guide to all
boats. If you are ordering a new roller headsail, figure out the jib size
for winds in the low 20's and tell your sailmaker to make the full size such
that you will still have decent shape when rolled down that amount.

Kappa Sails in Westbrook Connecticut makes an excellent "reefable"
genoa. Two different progressive weights in one sail. A 135 that can
roll down to a well shaped 100. If my present sails were not in such
good shape, I'd have one. I have a main from him, and it's a thing of
geat beauty.

On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:06:35 -0400, Roger Long wrote:

Since it is harder to change headsails with a roller rig, I've found
that sail plan and size is more important than I've heard discussed.

My E32 came with big 150% Genoa on the theory that it would do
everything. The problem was that, when rolled up to the size appropriate
for the typical strong wind, it lost too much shape and had too much
bulk rolled on the head stay for the boat to go to windward well.

the guy down the dock has a Jeppeson x-102 with a 135% on a Harken
roller...he's been sailing longer than I've been alive...where we sail,
daytime heating and funneling in the bay produce regular conditions of
20kts+ steady, with frequent gusting in the 30-40kt range...he solos so
in these times, he'll drop his main and roll the jib way in well below
100%...his boat still moves well to windward...so I'm confused about the
claims of poor shape/performance when rolled way in...he says it's BS and
has the empirical evidence at hand...I guess it depends on context.


If you are ordering a new roller headsail, figure out the
jib size for winds in the low 20's and tell your sailmaker to make the
full size such that you will still have decent shape when rolled down
that amount.

Seems reasonable...I've bought a 3yr. old 135% that I want to get cut to
fit a roller. I've found out the hard way that a 135% is just too much
sail for my sailing grounds...every day around noon the big guy in the
sky pushes the blow-like-stink button and getting that hanked-on sail
changed is getting too exciting for the admiral!

"mister b" wrote

in these times, he'll drop his main and roll the jib way in well below
100%...his boat still moves well to windward...so I'm confused about the
claims of poor shape/performance when rolled way in...he says it's BS and
has the empirical evidence at hand...I guess it depends on context.


Is he just moving well to windward or is he beating to reach an objective to
windward? A jib rolled way down (I think you meant 50%) will still drive
the boat to windward but it won't point very well or be as fast as with
smaller sail not rolled down as much. I could get my boat to make steady
progress to windward with the old 150% genoa rolled down to nearly that
amount but it was pretty discouraging to look at the GPS track on a long
beat.

The thing that got me thinking about the smaller, compromize Genoa I had
built was noticing how much faster the boat was to windward with the small
working jib in fresh breezes. The performance difference between the 150%
and the working jib (about a 110% overlap) even in light air and on reaches
was much less than the difference in sail area would indicate.

--
Roger Long

On 2008-08-09 21:06:04 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

The performance difference between the 150%
and the working jib (about a 110% overlap) even in light air and on reaches
was much less than the difference in sail area would indicate.

Upwind, the difference is pretty much the difference in length about a
foot or so behind the luff, where the power comes from. There's some
benefit from less drag in the smaller sail, too.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote

Upwind, the difference is pretty much the difference in length about a
foot or so behind the luff, where the power comes from. There's some
benefit from less drag in the smaller sail, too.


Exactly. My old Genoa, reefed down to the area the boat could carry in fresh
conditions, had less leading edge than the working jib. I now have just a
bit more area than the old working jib with full length leading edge and
more leading edge when reefed to the old working jib size. The overlap area
is really only effective reaching and, if you want the 150% area for light
air, better to put it in an asym.

--
Roger Long

On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:06:04 -0400, in message

"Roger Long" wrote:

The thing that got me thinking about the smaller, compromize Genoa I had
built was noticing how much faster the boat was to windward with the small
working jib in fresh breezes. The performance difference between the 150%
and the working jib (about a 110% overlap) even in light air and on reaches
was much less than the difference in sail area would indicate.

I don't know about anybody else, but my racing bias tends towards too
much sail. The last couple of weeks we went cruising with the cocktail
jib (about 115% with a really high clew) on the furler. As best I
could tell, the speed penalty was 10 or 15 percent and 3 or 5 degrees
of point. Based on observing the boats around us, most cruisers don't
seem to care about that.

The really big plus is that you can carry a sail like that well up to
about 25 knots to weather without having to roll it in, and you can do
what we call "cruising tacks" -- slow turns with enough time luffing
to trim without much power grinding.

Ryk

Ryk
My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get.
Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when
going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the
high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best
performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the
headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP. Such is also
'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure
which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ...
requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
:-)

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT), in message

RichH wrote:

Ryk
My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get.
Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when
going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the
high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best
performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the
headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP.

The high end race folks go through endless headsail changes to
optimize VMG. Rigs have moved towards smaller headsails and bigger
mains to make it easier to "change gears", as far as I can tell.

Such is also
'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure
which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ...
requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Easier on the crew as well. My point was that a cruising sail plan can
include a small jib with no practical loss of performance unless
things go really light.

Ryk

:-)

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

If you are ordering a new roller headsail, figure out the jib size
for winds in the low 20's and tell your sailmaker to make the full
size such that you will still have decent shape when rolled down that
amount.


I'll remember all this the next time I reef the genoa by pressing the furl
button while easing the sheet on the Amel....(c;

I really got spoiled.....