Advice on refridgeration unit please
Hi,
I need to replace my existing Tropicool eutectic refridgerator which, as it is dependent on the ambient air temperature, is just no good for the tropics. Quite often, the water temperature around South East Asia and Northern Australia reaches at least 30 degrees Celsius (86 F) and then some. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching its replacement and am considering the Isotherm ASU 3751 with the self pumping heat exchanger around the galley through hull. I assume that the inside air temperature of the boat would exclude an air cooled (cheaper and no plumbing and no possibility of corrosion of the special sea cock). From Defender, at $1,900 it is about $1,000 cheaper than the Technautics one. As they seem to use the same basic compressor and both have ASU (automatic sensing of state of charge of the electrical system) I imagine that the only difference would be the amount of coil surface in the holding plates. http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...l OpenCommand Any thoughts, ideas, experience etc would be gratefully received. I know that there was a thread on refridgeration earlier but I cannot find it. I recall an excellent article by a M Kohlmann (sp???) regards Peter |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:29:29 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: Hi, I need to replace my existing Tropicool eutectic refridgerator which, as it is dependent on the ambient air temperature, is just no good for the tropics. Quite often, the water temperature around South East Asia and Northern Australia reaches at least 30 degrees Celsius (86 F) and then some. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching its replacement and am considering the Isotherm ASU 3751 with the self pumping heat exchanger around the galley through hull. I assume that the inside air temperature of the boat would exclude an air cooled (cheaper and no plumbing and no possibility of corrosion of the special sea cock). From Defender, at $1,900 it is about $1,000 cheaper than the Technautics one. As they seem to use the same basic compressor and both have ASU (automatic sensing of state of charge of the electrical system) I imagine that the only difference would be the amount of coil surface in the holding plates. http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...l OpenCommand Any thoughts, ideas, experience etc would be gratefully received. I know that there was a thread on refridgeration earlier but I cannot find it. I recall an excellent article by a M Kohlmann (sp???) regards Peter A while ago I talked to Stephan, our local refrigeration expert, who recommends having a look at the new variable speed compressor units. He used to build and recommend eutectic installations but says that the new 12 Volt compressors use so little electricity that he now recommends them. Temperature - I have a 12 volt, air cooled condenser, unit with the condenser mounted under the cockpit floor. It has worked for the past 15 years with no problems. If you really, really, can't find any good information on the variable speed units let me know and I'll take a drive down to Stephan's place and get you more info. As I'm sure you are aware, a real sailor will eat nothing but salt junk and ship's biscuit. None of this namby-pamby refrigerated stuff for he man, AND, since you don't drink beer you have even less need for a fridge then usual. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:45:40 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: A while ago I talked to Stephan, our local refrigeration expert, who recommends having a look at the new variable speed compressor units. He used to build and recommend eutectic installations but says that the new 12 Volt compressors use so little electricity that he now recommends them. Temperature - I have a 12 volt, air cooled condenser, unit with the condenser mounted under the cockpit floor. It has worked for the past 15 years with no problems. If you really, really, can't find any good information on the variable speed units let me know and I'll take a drive down to Stephan's place and get you more info. As I'm sure you are aware, a real sailor will eat nothing but salt junk and ship's biscuit. None of this namby-pamby refrigerated stuff for he man, AND, since you don't drink beer you have even less need for a fridge then usual. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Thanks Bruce, I do believe that the variable speed compressor your local man refers to is the same type of thing as an ASU which both Technautics and Isotherm use. When the unit senses charging voltage it speeds up the compressor to freeze the holding plate asap. When the charging current goes - such as when the alternator on the engine shuts off, it senses the battery charge and turns away much slower. Now I do know that, like your non-friend with the little appendage, I should be eating hard tack ship's biscuits and bully beef. However, the biscuits usually contain weevils which is why the old salts banged them on the table in an attempt to dislodge them. Having eaten a variety of new things in my life I am not averse to eating said weevils but am unsure if they are halal. I do like corned beef though. It is one of my favourite foods, especially in a fresh bread sandwich with sliced onions so I suppose that I am partially a sailor. I refuse point blank to use a wooden bucket though but have been known to squat in the small, square hanging-over-the-stern opened bottom toilets on Indonesian trading boats. Question. Does your air cooled unit work much more in the tropics than it did in more temperate climes? I would much prefer an air cooled system which, apart from being cheaper, does not have the complication of possible electrolysis. I seem to recall somewhere that you don't need a huge airflow for the modern air cooled ones. cheers Peter |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:00:29 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:45:40 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: A while ago I talked to Stephan, our local refrigeration expert, who recommends having a look at the new variable speed compressor units. He used to build and recommend eutectic installations but says that the new 12 Volt compressors use so little electricity that he now recommends them. Temperature - I have a 12 volt, air cooled condenser, unit with the condenser mounted under the cockpit floor. It has worked for the past 15 years with no problems. If you really, really, can't find any good information on the variable speed units let me know and I'll take a drive down to Stephan's place and get you more info. As I'm sure you are aware, a real sailor will eat nothing but salt junk and ship's biscuit. None of this namby-pamby refrigerated stuff for he man, AND, since you don't drink beer you have even less need for a fridge then usual. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Thanks Bruce, I do believe that the variable speed compressor your local man refers to is the same type of thing as an ASU which both Technautics and Isotherm use. When the unit senses charging voltage it speeds up the compressor to freeze the holding plate asap. When the charging current goes - such as when the alternator on the engine shuts off, it senses the battery charge and turns away much slower. The conversation was very general but I was left with the impression that Stephan was talking about a conventional fridge, not a cold plate. As I understood it the compressor initially ran at full speed but slowed as the temperature decreased or the pressure built up???? We were mainly discussing my conventional fridge and he was saying that the new ones drew much less electricity. Now I do know that, like your non-friend with the little appendage, I should be eating hard tack ship's biscuits and bully beef. However, the biscuits usually contain weevils which is why the old salts banged them on the table in an attempt to dislodge them. Wichity (spelling?) grubs? Salt junk is pieces of beef thrown in a barrel of brine. When you want to eat it you first need to soak it in fresh water for a while. Sort of like salt fish, Ikan Garam? Having eaten a variety of new things in my life I am not averse to eating said weevils but am unsure if they are halal. I do like corned beef though. It is one of my favourite foods, especially in a fresh bread sandwich with sliced onions so I suppose that I am partially a sailor. I refuse point blank to use a wooden bucket though but have been known to squat in the small, square hanging-over-the-stern opened bottom toilets on Indonesian trading boats. I was down in Irian Jaya and say a really nice, apparently, ex navy powerboat. about 40 ft. that looked like it had decent size quarters on it. Built out over the stern was an added on "head". A one metre by one metre building, with a roof and door. Looked quite comfortable. Question. Does your air cooled unit work much more in the tropics than it did in more temperate climes? I installed this one in Singapore after the old one died of corrosion. My very old solar panels run it as long as the sun shines every day. I would much prefer an air cooled system which, apart from being cheaper, does not have the complication of possible electrolysis. I seem to recall somewhere that you don't need a huge airflow for the modern air cooled ones. The condenser on mine is about 8-10 inches square and has a 12 volt "muffin" fan to cool it. cheers Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Herodotus wrote in
: http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Oh, I see....(c; I'm trying my best to buy a new Smart CDi diesel car to replace my aging fleet of old Mercedes diesels, and still maintain my energy independence with another diesel. They don't import them into the USA because the President and his cronies are all oil company executives who puke when someone tries to import a car that uses 3.3 litres/100km and has the lowest carbon footprint on the planet, including electric cars if you consider power plant emissions. The arrogant *******s at the local Smart Dealer, Baker Motors, didn't like me parking my old stepvan out front or my wearing T-shirt/blue jeans into the showroom that has NO SMART CARS FOR SALE! I laid out $15,000 in $100 bills fanned them out on the desk and said, "I'd like a Smart For 2 CDi with just an air conditioner installed, please." NO GO. They would make me a deal on a new Maybach they're stuck with, now that Maybach is going out of production, however....(c; I bundled my cash back up but they did take my name and number...finally. Noone wants to sell me a new car! I can't believe it! |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in m: http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 05:24:04 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Oh, I see....(c; I'm trying my best to buy a new Smart CDi diesel car to replace my aging fleet of old Mercedes diesels, and still maintain my energy independence with another diesel. They don't import them into the USA because the President and his cronies are all oil company executives who puke when someone tries to import a car that uses 3.3 litres/100km and has the lowest carbon footprint on the planet, including electric cars if you consider power plant emissions. The arrogant *******s at the local Smart Dealer, Baker Motors, didn't like me parking my old stepvan out front or my wearing T-shirt/blue jeans into the showroom that has NO SMART CARS FOR SALE! I laid out $15,000 in $100 bills fanned them out on the desk and said, "I'd like a Smart For 2 CDi with just an air conditioner installed, please." NO GO. They would make me a deal on a new Maybach they're stuck with, now that Maybach is going out of production, however....(c; I bundled my cash back up but they did take my name and number...finally. Noone wants to sell me a new car! I can't believe it! I suppose I'm out of touch but what is a "Smart CDi diesel car"? A maker called "Smart" or does that refer to the engine controls? I ask as all the newer diesel pickups made in Thailand have computer controlled injection these days. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand Some snipped Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand Some snipped Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in : http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand Some snipped Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:45:26 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in m: http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand Don;t know what happened but I see I sent several copies of the same message. My apologies to all for the excess bandwidth taken. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:29:29 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: I need to replace my existing Tropicool eutectic refridgerator which, as it is dependent on the ambient air temperature, is just no good for the tropics. Quite often, the water temperature around South East Asia and Northern Australia reaches at least 30 degrees Celsius (86 F) and then some. There is a lot of information he http://compressors.danfoss.com/products/products_dc.htm I believe that Danfoss offers a water cooled option. |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:29:29 +1000, in message
Herodotus wrote: I have spent a considerable amount of time researching its replacement and am considering the Isotherm ASU 3751 with the self pumping heat exchanger around the galley through hull. I assume that the inside air temperature of the boat would exclude an air cooled (cheaper and no plumbing and no possibility of corrosion of the special sea cock). I installed an air cooled Isotherm ASU 3 years ago and have been very happy with the performance. I thought about the self pumping heat exchanger but decided I didn't need it on the Great Lakes. The power consumption seems to be about 15 amp hours per day on 25C days, but that will vary enormously with installation specifics. I would be inclined to believe their recommendations for the self pump in tropical applications, although you might ask about the potential for an upgrade. The basic units are the same, so you might be able to try the air cooled version and move to the self pump water cooled if needed. The ASU feature seems to save a lot by running full out when the engine is on, but I have no measurements to prove it. As an engineer I think the self pump design is very elegant, and am inclined to install one just for that reason. Ryk |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: I suppose I'm out of touch but what is a "Smart CDi diesel car"? A maker called "Smart" or does that refer to the engine controls? I ask as all the newer diesel pickups made in Thailand have computer controlled injection these days. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VAXWrNojlw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJICDGT8G5A This guy had the camera strapped to the steering wheel...(c; http://www.smartplanet.com/news/tran...fortwo-diesel- coming-to-britain-in-2009.htm 640 miles on 33l of petrol....and it's really FUN to drive! Diesel Smart isn't coming to the USA because it gets too much mileage for our oil company politicians to stomach. The dealer here says maybe in 2010. Canada has them now. I want the basic model in bright yellow with 3-cyl diesel I can run on my successful used vegoil/mineral spirit blend like my other vehicles, except the Honda Reflex scooter of course. Gas cars I have no use for. A dealer in New Brunswick said he'd have one all polished up and licensed in NB when I arrived with the US cash. "We love American dollars in New Brunswick!", he said to me. If I drive it 500 miles inside Canada before coming home in it, I get to play the old European delivery game Mercedes Benz has played for decades....buy the car and fly to Germany to drive it around Europe then fly it home on Lufthansa's special plane as a used Benz for lots less tariff ripoff than new. It would be a great trip in the little car, a real vacation. I'd stop by my old hometown in upstate NY and visit some old mates I haven't seen in 30 years on the way back. I have an uncle in Manheim, PA, who is still alive. He'd love to put me up for a few days rest....(c; 33l/100km and only 66gm/km carbon, the lowest carbon footprint on the planet. The trip back would be quite cheap...even at $5/gallon for #2 fuel oil! |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Herodotus wrote in
: The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I wonder how one of these little $100 fridges would work with their useless little freezers filled with blocks of aluminum as holding plates so you could flip them on when you crank the engine (or install a simple relay to do it automatically). Btu is Btu. It's not rocket science. The more you open it, the more it draws. The cheap one's R-value could be easily increased with some sheet styrofoam to pack it in with or glued to its sides. I have some big aluminum heat sinks I got from somewhere. I think I'll play a little with them stuffed into the little freezer and see how that works as a holding plate....hmmm...(c; |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. No, no! Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you buy a big enough alternator! Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it. |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Don;t know what happened but I see I sent several copies of the same message. My apologies to all for the excess bandwidth taken. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Serves ya right.....Larry Lesson indeed! |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:42:40 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. No, no! Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you buy a big enough alternator! Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it. I had a 1988 mustang ragtop that had about ten interior lights and a small battery. If you left a door slightly ajar, the battery would be completely, 0 volts, dead in 45 minutes or so. A ten amp charger would put in enough juice to start it in ten seconds. Then comes the charge from zero at the maximum rate. Needless to say, that battery didn't last long. Casady |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:41:19 +0000, in message
Larry wrote: I wonder how one of these little $100 fridges would work with their useless little freezers filled with blocks of aluminum as holding plates so you could flip them on when you crank the engine (or install a simple relay to do it automatically). Btu is Btu. It's not rocket science. The more you open it, the more it draws. The cheap one's R-value could be easily increased with some sheet styrofoam to pack it in with or glued to its sides. I have some big aluminum heat sinks I got from somewhere. I think I'll play a little with them stuffed into the little freezer and see how that works as a holding plate....hmmm...(c; Badly. You would be much better off filling the freezer with a phase change fluid that melts/freezes somewhere in the desired temperature range. Water, for instance... The exterior of a typical little bar fridge is a heat dissipation surface, so insulating it from the surroundings would be a bad idea. Ryk |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Jul 18, 8:42*am, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote : Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. No, no! *Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you buy a big enough alternator! Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it. In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up to about 80% charge. That can be very, very useful. It may be that you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. High output alternators are a good thing. Bummer about the Smart Car. AFIK, they aren't importing the diesel version because in CA you can't buy diesel cars w/less than 7k miles on them. As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... But, what you really want is a diesel plug in hybrid... -- Tom. |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:45:40 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: As I'm sure you are aware, a real sailor will eat nothing but salt junk and ship's biscuit. None of this namby-pamby refrigerated stuff for he man, AND, since you don't drink beer you have even less need for a fridge then usual. The RN rum issue was originally a substitute for beer. Small beer, so called, one per cent alcohol or so. It was sure as hell not refrigerated.[or even iced] Casady |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:41:19 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I wonder how one of these little $100 fridges would work with their useless little freezers filled with blocks of aluminum as holding plates so you could flip them on when you crank the engine (or install a simple relay to do it automatically). Btu is Btu. It's not rocket science. The more you open it, the more it draws. The cheap one's R-value could be easily increased with some sheet styrofoam to pack it in with or glued to its sides. I have some big aluminum heat sinks I got from somewhere. I think I'll play a little with them stuffed into the little freezer and see how that works as a holding plate....hmmm...(c; That's what I admire about you Larry - a true lateral thinker. Seriously. I'd be interested to see what results you get. cheers Peter |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:41:19 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I wonder how one of these little $100 fridges would work with their useless little freezers filled with blocks of aluminum as holding plates so you could flip them on when you crank the engine (or install a simple relay to do it automatically). Btu is Btu. It's not rocket science. The more you open it, the more it draws. The cheap one's R-value could be easily increased with some sheet styrofoam to pack it in with or glued to its sides. I have some big aluminum heat sinks I got from somewhere. I think I'll play a little with them stuffed into the little freezer and see how that works as a holding plate....hmmm...(c; The problem with the "household" type of fridge is the lack of insulation. I just looked at one in a 45 ft. boat and it looks like the compressor is running much longer then a "built in" with thick insulation. However, I am in the process of rebuilding an old motor cruiser and plan to install a small house fridge as the boat will generally either have the engines running or be tapped into a marina. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:42:40 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. No, no! Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you buy a big enough alternator! Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it. (I was trying to help the guy.......) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Jul 18, 8:42*am, Larry wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote : Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. No, no! *Everyone knows a boat battery can be charged in 3 minutes if you buy a big enough alternator! Don't let logic, battery chemistry and me upset it. In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up to about 80% charge. That can be very, very useful. It may be that you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. High output alternators are a good thing. So do Larry, Peter and myself. (Well, larry doesn't live on one, he just voyages). Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery bank is overkill, Bummer about the Smart Car. AFIK, they aren't importing the diesel version because in CA you can't buy diesel cars w/less than 7k miles on them. As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... But, what you really want is a diesel plug in hybrid... -- Tom. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:32:48 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: Thanks Bruce, This is the sort of information I am looking for. It's a pity about the wind in that area. I always have to smile when I see people hiring the Sunsail yachts out of Langkawi and then motoring everywhere. Still, not a bad place to motor around the Islands and then up to Siam. In Curacao the trades blow non-stop. Even disconnected from the mains and relying on the one 80 watt solar panel (16 years old) and the new Airex wind generator, it keeps the batteries charged no matter my usuage and the charging light goes off indicating a full charge quite often during the day. Need some of those trades back home. cheers Peter On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:14:20 +1000, Herodotus wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:06:49 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:01:40 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in m: http://www.isotherm.com/en/product?f...1254FirefoxHTM LShellOpenCommand I've got a fridge in my truck about the size of a Cruise 85 running off the shop inverter. It's made in Korea and cost $US89 from Home Depot on sale in January of '06. What attracted me was the can dispensing rack in the door. Has a tiny freezer that's near worthless but could keep some meat solid. Ice trays freeze really fast. What the hell makes a BOAT fridge the same size cost 10 times the price, the $60 inverter screwed into the case? What a rip.....boat crap! Stop by. I have another one in the house....holding the Heineken's minikeg to just the right temperature, right next to the computer desk....(c; Larry, Larry, you just don;t understand. You see cheap Korean fridges are sold by some bloke at Home Depot while proper YACHTING gear is sold by gentlemen wearing white pants and those funny shoes with all the squiggly cuts in the soles. Obviously anything sold by a white pants salesman has got to be the correct type of thing that a fellow would want on his boat whereas one would rather be dead then to have the chaps know that he had a (Ug!) Home Depot device aboard. Besides, we were talking about built in fridges :-) Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Larry, Bruce, Gentlemen (My God! I have to lie sometimes to get what i want) It does seem to me to be a lot of money to pay for the systems that are sold. The problem is that I have a great wind generator (another that can be added if necessary) an 80 watt solar panel (and will get another) as well as a smart charge system for my 120 AMP alternator. I have 4 Trojan 6 volt batteries in parallel and series - 440 Amp hours. If necessary I could get another 2 of these but at the moment don't think I need them. I really want a system that will work well with minimal charging of `the batteries by the alternator. I don't want one that I have to run the motor for an hour each day just to run a fridge. I have noticed that often the wind generator tops up the batteries and then feathers. I hate to see potential charging going to waste especially if the wind and sun fizzle out later in the day. Well, first of all you need a "Larry Lesson" on how batteries charge as your 110 amp alternator is just a waste of money. Secondly, I have three 42.7 watt, old, solar panels and, God willing the sun shines every day, they will keep MY 440 AH battery bank charged and run my old 12 volt built in fridge. (providing I don't turn on a light very often). If you are going to hang about in Oz you may have enough wind to make your wind generator useful but if you move up to Pinang they don't work as well :-) Apparently they become indolent once they arrive in Malaysia. Now, there is a guy down the jetty that I just talked to, has a new eutectic, built in, powered by a 12/220 volt compressor and tells me that if the fridge is operated correctly (runs all the time; keep ice on the plate; keep the fridge full; etc.) he gets buy with two solar panels. I will get some details, panels, fridge model, etc., and let you know as it sounds like what you want. I am normally seldom moored to a dock and thus shore electricity is not a factor. (BTW Herodotus isn't tethered either - in case either of you make a smart arsed comment regarding my English useage). What smartass? Moored - "hitched to a dock" We usually say "tied up" where I come from, though. The idea of a holding plate is that I could utilise periods of greater charge whereas a conventional fridge runs off and on over the entire day. I do wonder why these systems are so expensive though. I can think of a lot of things I could do with the dollars. Now, now. To quote John D. Rockefeller, "If you have to ask how much you can't afford one" :-) Do you know if I can just buy the components separately or is there something wrong with my logic? If you get into seriously thinking of building a system I can probably pick Stephan's brains for what, where and how much. It probably wouldn't be cost effective to have him build the system as he is oriented toward the high end of the market but he is a pretty friendly guy and would probably tell me where he gets parts. If you are thinking of building your own system beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book by Nigal Calder "Refrigeration for Pleasure Boats: Installation, Maintenance and Repair" as it has all the calculations to plan insulation thickness, plate size, heat exchanger specs - everything you wanted to know and more. Well worth the price. BTW Bruce, I am due in KL on next Thursday night Inshahallah. Are you still at Phuket? Apart from Penang, I am also visiting KL (Pelabuhan Klang), Johor Baru, Singapore and Karimun and Medan in Sumatera. I would love to make time to meet with you If I can. Don't worry. I shall speak and listen slowly and can understand dull, boring, tedious Southern drawl if required. Can't make it this trip. I'm just out of the Yard and haven't even been able to scrape the yard dirt off because it has been raining so hard. As soon as I get that done I'm off to Bangkok for a couple of weeks to my wife. Have to be next trip. I do appreciate both of your advice and your help. regards Peter Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:44:05 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Don;t know what happened but I see I sent several copies of the same message. My apologies to all for the excess bandwidth taken. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) Serves ya right.....Larry Lesson indeed! Shorthand, old chap. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
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Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:21:49 -0400, Ryk
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:29:29 +1000, in message Herodotus wrote: I have spent a considerable amount of time researching its replacement and am considering the Isotherm ASU 3751 with the self pumping heat exchanger around the galley through hull. I assume that the inside air temperature of the boat would exclude an air cooled (cheaper and no plumbing and no possibility of corrosion of the special sea cock). I installed an air cooled Isotherm ASU 3 years ago and have been very happy with the performance. I thought about the self pumping heat exchanger but decided I didn't need it on the Great Lakes. The power consumption seems to be about 15 amp hours per day on 25C days, but that will vary enormously with installation specifics. I would be inclined to believe their recommendations for the self pump in tropical applications, although you might ask about the potential for an upgrade. The basic units are the same, so you might be able to try the air cooled version and move to the self pump water cooled if needed. The ASU feature seems to save a lot by running full out when the engine is on, but I have no measurements to prove it. As an engineer I think the self pump design is very elegant, and am inclined to install one just for that reason. Ryk Hi Ryk, Thanks for this as I don't know how real the company's power usage figures are and at what outside temperature they are quoted for. I note that the one I am looking at states that it is for a refridgerator, not a freezer. However an optional extra is an ice making tray. Does this mean that one could have a small freezer compartment overflowing to a larger fridge one. A freezer would be great but not vital. Iced water would be nice though. cheers Peter |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
On Jul 18, 4:46*pm, Bruce in Bangkok
... In practice high output alternators make a big difference getting up to about 80% charge. *That can be very, very useful. *It may be that you have some logic and battery chemistry in your text books but I live on my boat and go voyaging a bit. *High output alternators are a good thing. So do Larry, Peter and myself. (Well, larry doesn't live on one, he just voyages). Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery bank is overkill, ... Well, I've got two 110 amp alternators on a 510 AH bank and I think that's about right. My experience is that I can bulk my batteries quickly with my 110's. Sometimes I top them off with solar and sometimes I work them in the 80%-50% range. Every week or so they get a full charge and that does take a long time, but still less time than it would with a 60 amp unit. YMMV. -- Tom. |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Ryk wrote in
: The exterior of a typical little bar fridge is a heat dissipation surface, so insulating it from the surroundings would be a bad idea. Ryk You are correct for the new ones. I was cruising on of my thrift shops today and paid $10 for a Sears Kenmore 2.2 cu ft little bar fridge in nice condition. "I don't think it runs.", the check out guy said. "The compressor doesn't run." Well, always skeptical, I plugged it into one of the test outlets on the shelf and fired it up. The evaporator froze my skin to the aluminum evaporator in about 3 minutes from a dead start. I turned it around because I couldn't hear it running, either! The little compressor is SO quiet you can't even hear it start! Looking at the various labels I saw it was running R-12, which would account for its quiet operation at such low pressure. Then, I spotted the CURRENT DRAIN at 120VAC of .6A! Hmm...72 watts running = 5.2A at 13.8V on charged house batteries through a little high efficiency inverter...exactly what's on the thousand dollar marine fridges. Getting it home, I confirmed 71 watts under full head pressure and the hole external condensor sticking out the back of it....NOT HEATING THE DAMNED CASE to go back through the insulation, got hotter than hell...a great heat transfer was taking place! It's sitting on the floor next to the printer, tonight, testing. The wattmeter still sits on 71W when it's running, which I take to be about 15% duty cycle on my stopwatch after the initial cooldown and temperature stabilization to 38F on the top shelf away from the evap. The thermometer inside the little box evap sits on 8F at about 2/3 thermostat setting and should keep the icecream hard...(c; There's two can/bottle racks with a holding bar in the door, which is not damaged like my other R12 fridge (much older). None of the plastic is cracked anywhere. I assume this means it spent ZERO time in a college dorm full of Bud. I'll clean it up tomorrow and swap it for the 4cuft currently in my stepvan. That one runs R-134a and draws nearly 130 watts after it stabilizes...reducing my AH drain to half with still plenty of room to keep the colas and sandwiches cold on the Honda or inverter off the house batteries (330AH golf cart beasts.) I'm also going to see....I think the nice door on this fridge will fit on my favorite old R-12 fridge, the one with the 40 watt vibrator compressor from Sweden. That's the most efficient little fridge I own but its door has gotten so leaky and hard to keep closed I gave up and set it aside. This nice oak-grained Kenmore door will restore it to its former glory. THAT fridge will run off a 75 watt inverter that is built into a cigarette lighter plug! 40 watts = less than 3A drain off 13.8VDC, but I'm going to compare the AH drain over 4 hours between these R-12 units. The compressor model may be more efficient than the vibrator compressor, leading the new fridge to win the AH Contest....from lower runtimes than the vibrator runs. I'll be in the lab with my Linux tablet running spreadsheets if Algore calls for advise.... |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Ryk wrote in
: You would be much better off filling the freezer with a phase change fluid that melts/freezes somewhere in the desired temperature range. Water, for instance... I have lots of freeze packets, both in plastic bags and hard plastic cooler packs made to go between the cans. I'll try them, too, as a cold plate. |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
" wrote in news:8efb7662-ce61-
: But, what you really want is a diesel plug in hybrid... Not with a $3000 to $6000 "battery pack" in them I don't. Drop by your Prius dealer, back in the parts department, and tell them your Prius got in a crash (no battery warranty excuse) and ask 'em how much a new high voltage battery pack for a 2-year-old Prius will cost you..... You cannot save money in a hybrid with $6000 parts to buy! .....and it won't run without it! http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-pack To get 150mpg in a Prius, they have a $US9,500 battery pack to install turning it into nearly an electric car: http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/20/b...ade-for-prius- claims-150mpg/ I'm also interested in enclosed motorcycles, which this one isn't really: http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/28/t...30-pound-huvo- electric-car/ ......and this one is..... http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/22/e...motorcycle-is- green-and-ghastly/ An enclosed motorcycle makes a lot of sense because it completely bypasses the stupid nanny regulations the oil companies have used for years to keep micro-sized vehicles Europeans and Asians drive OFF THE US ROADS, saving millions of dollars in gas guzzler fuel costs. Why I can ride this: http://powersports.honda.com/scooters/model.asp? ModelName=Reflex&ModelYear=2007&ModelId=NSS2507 made of plastic with a metal frame inside it and NO SAFETY EQUIPMENT is permitted by the ruling class, but I cannot drive this: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008...no-the-worlds- cheapest-car/ which only costs $2500 and gets nearly as much mileage as the scooter....is just STUPID! Microcars need to be classed as motorcycles, whether oil company executives like Cheney and Bush like it or not. It should be a personal decision whether I want to drive one and risk my life....EXACTLY as it is with my Honda Reflex getting 76mpg driving easy and 65mpg driving it like I stole it...(c; I'm not even forced to wear a helmet in SC after 12,000 noisy motorcycles kept circling the State House back in the 70's to have that stupidity recinded. I was riding a Honda CB750 4-cylinder motorcycle in that parade, I'm proud to say. Thousands of motorcyclists DIDN'T die to fulfill the safety bureaucrats worst nightmare. I do wear a helmet, without exception. That should be MY decision, not some highway department bureaucrat or lawyer politician..... Would you drive a Nano for $2500 that gets 70 mpg? |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Frankly, in my experience a 110 amp alternator and a 440 A.H. battery bank is overkill, The only time it wouldn't be is if you have some heavy loads running while trying to recharge, like a big fridge trying to freeze a coldplate off 12VDC or running the microwave off the inverter while the diesel is running, etc. 110A at 14V is only 1540 watts and the microwave would eat a thousand of that. A big inverter loaded down can consume the whole 110A output, frying the intermittent duty alternator if that's what it is, and most of them are I found out with Skip's purchase here. Until the charging current drops off the amount you want to use, and only if the alternator is continuous or "heavy duty" rated, can you run loads off it of any amount..... |
Advice on refridgeration unit please
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