Starting a new thread because "Best bluewater 34 footer" is getting
insanely off-topic:

Frank Maier said:

Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Why is that? Me, I've always thought the advantages of a pilothouse,
or at least a hard dodger/bimini, were substantial if it was
well-integrated into the rest of the deck and the controls were
logical. I like the idea of hard points for rails, handgrips, places
to lash the boom, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean a pilot house,
but it does mean more than the typical enclosed bimini/dodger on light
steel tubing.

R.

"Vomit'orium" is another name for a pilot house.

A pilot house is common up here in the Pacific NW where it rains so much and
you really need some shelter will steering.

However, out on the open ocean, the majority of the time you want an open,
fresh air cock pit with a canvas or hard dodger and Bimini the just keep the
sum off and nothing else to block the breeze.

Another down side to a pilot house is the windage it presents along with
wide expanses of glass windows that could be easily be stoved in by a
boarding wave.

If you have a pilot house on a passage making vessel, it should be something
that won't sink the boat if you loose it.

Just some generally held opinions, by some. You will hear others of course.
(you know what they say about opinions.)

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

rhys wrote in message
...
Starting a new thread because "Best bluewater 34 footer" is
getting
insanely off-topic:

Frank Maier said:

Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a
pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse
version.

Why is that? Me, I've always thought the advantages of a
pilothouse,
or at least a hard dodger/bimini, were substantial if it was
well-integrated into the rest of the deck and the controls were
logical. I like the idea of hard points for rails, handgrips,
places
to lash the boom, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean a pilot
house,
but it does mean more than the typical enclosed bimini/dodger
on light
steel tubing.

There is, of course, the half way house - the Deck Saloon.
Oysters use this solution. So many of them have rounded the globe
it's getting embarrassing. There's a pic on my FS site;

http://homepage.ntlworld/jim.baersel...cification.htm

JimB

We have a pilot house cutter and love it for
offshore. That's why we bought it. You can check it
out at www.panoceanic.net

Doug
s/v Callista

"rhys" wrote in message
...
Starting a new thread because "Best bluewater 34 footer" is getting
insanely off-topic:

Frank Maier said:

Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Why is that? Me, I've always thought the advantages of a pilothouse,
or at least a hard dodger/bimini, were substantial if it was
well-integrated into the rest of the deck and the controls were
logical. I like the idea of hard points for rails, handgrips, places
to lash the boom, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean a pilot house,
but it does mean more than the typical enclosed bimini/dodger on light
steel tubing.

R.

rhys wrote:
Starting a new thread because "Best bluewater 34 footer" is getting
insanely off-topic:

Frank Maier said:
Another of my prejudices is that I don't wanna have a pilothouse out
on the deep blue; so, I'd be looking for a non-pilothouse version.

Why is that? Me, I've always thought the advantages of a pilothouse,
or at least a hard dodger/bimini, were substantial if it was
well-integrated into the rest of the deck and the controls were
logical. I like the idea of hard points for rails, handgrips, places
to lash the boom, etc. That doesn't necessarily mean a pilot house,
but it does mean more than the typical enclosed bimini/dodger on light
steel tubing.

Hi,

Steve, my fellow Northwesterner, pretty much hit the high points.

If I were just cruising the Northwest, I'd love to have a pilothouse
because it provides a wonderful shelter and I'd have a reasonable
expectation of never getting hit by a big "freak" wave or getting
knocked down hard. Probably the same situation for New England coastal
cruising, although I couldn't say from personal experience.

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

YMMV,

Frank

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
....the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.

One thing I neglected to mention and I didn't note that anyone else
mentioned, 'the boom hieght'.

If a pilot house is added to a boat either by the designer or after market.
This everiably involves raising the boom height. This either reduces the
sail area or may increase the mast height. Either way, the sailing
characteristics of the boat will be changed. The center of gravity is
raised, both by the boom/mast and sail height. The boat will be much more
tender under sail and roll deeper if additional ballast isn't added.

Generally, a dodger cause these problems to a much lesser extent since
their installation is not normally intended to provide full standing head
room. In most instance the design boom height is not effected since the
designer has anticipated a normal dodger and bimini.

There is one other advantage of the pilot house over the dodger, and that is
the structural strength is usually sufficient to handle the main sheet
travel on the roof top.

Just my thoughts. FWIW.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

I have a NW29 that i put a hard dodger on. It is the roof from a royal sea
power boat and is laminate core construction. It is supported by lexan
winscreen in front and 1" stainless tubing on the side. I can stand on it
to reef, it suports my solar panels.
I have zippered sunbrella and thick guage plastic for the side and rear.
It is ideal for extending the length of the boat 10Ft since i now use that
space like it is a permanent enclosure. My laptop is out there, the
cushions stay dry, the wind howls outside and on hot days the sun is
thwarted but the breeze flows thru.
I have had the luxury of comparison to pre and post comparison and i see
no overt changes in windage,,,,as the boat heals the doger shows less
surface to the wind. It has effectd my ability to point high by a about 5
degrees but the comfort factor far exceeds that detriment for me.
In all it wa the bets thing i did to that boat and anybody "and there were
plenty} that had negative comments as to how it would affect the boat have
been proven wrong. I notice and extra three or four H.Dodger boats evey yr
now in my cruising area. As to the tropics...i have had to endure heavy
rain in the closed interior of the boat a;ternating with a good soaking in
raingear/....AND I AN'T NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN! Hard dodger all the
way...zipped sides m,ake it pleasnat for tropics.
rick


On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:49:14 -0500, rhys wrote:

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
...the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.




--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:55:45 -0800, Steve wrote:

One thing I neglected to mention and I didn't note that anyone else
mentioned, 'the boom hieght'.

If a pilot house is added to a boat either by the designer or after
market.
This everiably involves raising the boom height. This either reduces
the
sail area or may increase the mast height. Either way, the sailing
characteristics of the boat will be changed. The center of gravity is
raised, both by the boom/mast and sail height. The boat will be much more
tender under sail and roll deeper if additional ballast isn't added.

theoreticly yes...but my 'experience' is not so. The sail was taken to the
top of the mast and the boom (mine is on a track) was fixed there.
a well designed boat can withstand a few extra people on one side or the
other..a J-29 might not but most boats tka e that in stride.

nerally, a dodger cause these problems to a much lesser extent since
their installation is not normally intended to provide full standing head
room. In most instance the design boom height is not effected since the
designer has anticipated a normal dodger and bimini.

i have full standing headroom.
snip...
Rick

Steve
s/v Good Intentions





--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

x-no-archive:yes

rhys wrote:

On 29 Mar 2004 10:55:19 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

But in the semitropics or tropics it's a sauna.

OK, I can see that being unpleasant

The pilot house that I'm most familiar with is an aft cockpit boat.
It has dual steering stations - either outside in the cockpit, or
inside the wheelhouse. I'm not sure, but I think the pilot house
windows open. They do create another potential place for leaks, but
that would be true whether they opened or not.

These are pilothouses that were designed as pilot houses and not
aftermarket retrofits. They are also ketches or cutter ketches - they
have a staysail for a total of 4 sails.


It's weight and windage. Granted the weight element isn't significant
and hopefully the designer allowed for it in his original plan; but
windage is significant to me. We always tend to discuss these design
elements in terms of extreme weather. Getting to gale force and above,
a pilothouse represents unacceptable windage to me.

Maybe the more elaborate sort of canvas and lexan/something less
scratch-prone combo is the answer...so that you are essentially
enclosed, but can roll up or unzip to accommodate warmer weather
and/or heavier wind you don't want pushing the boat around. My friend
with a center-cockpit ketch has this setup, with relatively light
canvas and heavier frame with grab bars. He sails through Lake Ontario
ice pans in January wearing just a fleece jacket, drinking hot coffee,
so cutting the wind is 90% of the issue.

In the event of a freak wave or hard knockdown... Well, I've been
knocked down offshore, during the Vic-Maui race (Victoria, B.C. to
Maui, if you're unfamiliar with it), and cracked expensive, sturdy,
small ports in the cabin trunk. Having huge expanses of glass (ok,
lexan or whatever) is not what I'd consider a safe offshore design
element.

So, given all that, and given that I'm done with cold weather sailing
and intend to stay South of 30 in the future, I don't want a
pilothouse.

Fair enough. Thanks to all for your responses. Maybe a hard DODGER
(like those nice Euro boats...Hanse?...) is a good compromise, with a
frame bimini plus all-around enclosure.

Me, I have an old "lid" type hinged companionway cover, so I just make
due with a bimini. That suffices quite well in keeping the sun off
...the rain...not so well. What I need is a abbreviated "companionway"
dodger, which would be nice and a lot cheaper than retrofitting a
sliding hatch and a turtle, because the traveller is immediately
forward of the hinged lid.

No wonder I have pilot house envy...G

R.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html