A correspondent wrote me with this question:

"a niggly question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message "a niggly
question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?


"North and by East" is not a point on the compass, though some sloppy
helmsmen or watch officer may have added the the word "and" for some reason.
Below are the points of the compass with name, abbreviation and degrees:

North N 0(360)
North by east N by E 11.25
North-northeast NNE 22.5
Northeast by north NE by N 33.75
Northeast NE 45
Northeast by east NE by E 56.25
East-northeast ENE 67.5
East by north E by N 78.75
East E 90
East by south E by S 101.25
East-southeast ESE 112.5
Southeast by east SE by E 123.75
Southeast SE 135
Southeast by south SE by S 146.25
South-southeast SSE 157.5
South by east S by E 168.75
South S 180
South by west S by W 191.25
South-southwest SSW 202.5
Southwest by south SW by S 213.75
Southwest SW 225
Southwest by west SW by W 236.25
West-southwest WSW 247.5
West by south W by S 258.75
West W 270
West by north W by N 281.25
West-northwest WNW 292.5
Northwest by west NW by W 303.75
Northwest NW 315
Northwest by north NW by N 326.25
North-northwest NNW 337.5
North by west N by W 348.75


--
Carl Herzog
Editor, Reed's Nautical Almanacs
Providence, Rhode Island
(401) 454-8300

Carl Herzog wrote in message
...
Below are the points of the compass with name, abbreviation and degrees:

snip

Thanks Carl..that's interesting. In our Power Squadron courses we didn't
get into much detail with the terms and pretty well stuck with the numerical
degrees. I wonder if anyone still uses all the terms.

I still petty much a traditionalist when it comes to treminology and I'm
gratified that there is at least a couple people left that can box the
compass.

These 32 points are not very practical for course keeping and fell out of
favor with with the need for precision in bearing taking an plot accuracy.

I don't think I have seen them on a compass card (on pleasure boat compass)
for 50 years. The Navy magnetic compass on WWII and earlier ship still had
them but the terms were seldom used except to discribe the "~true" wind
direction.

In everyday boat and weather vocabulary, only the cardinal points are used
today, along with an occasion NE or SW, etc. The lesser points become less
useful due to the problem of converting them to compass degrees in the
cockpit and at the chart table.

Anyway, I ramble.. It's still a pleasure to hear the terms (less the
corruptions).

Steve
s/v Good Intentions
(In the Pacific NW)

You tweaked my curiosity ...

A web search on "North and by East" gives a number of very old (16th and 17th
century) references, plus one comment that "and by" means a "half point." This
would mean North by a half East, or 5 5/8 degrees. Thought this may be correct,
I'm unconvinced by one google reference.

Bowditch, in 1802, gives the more modern half and quarter points, without any
other terminology. Most of his navigation is given in degrees and minutes, but
courses are generally given in points. The departure tables are provided both
in quarter points and degrees and minutes; trig and log values are only given in
degrees & minutes.

-jeff



"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
A correspondent wrote me with this question:

"a niggly question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

In article , Steve says...

I still petty much a traditionalist when it comes to treminology and I'm
gratified that there is at least a couple people left that can box the
compass.

These 32 points are not very practical for course keeping and fell out of
favor with with the need for precision in bearing taking an plot accuracy.

I don't think I have seen them on a compass card (on pleasure boat compass)
for 50 years. The Navy magnetic compass on WWII and earlier ship still had
them but the terms were seldom used except to discribe the "~true" wind
direction.

In everyday boat and weather vocabulary, only the cardinal points are used
today, along with an occasion NE or SW, etc. The lesser points become less
useful due to the problem of converting them to compass degrees in the
cockpit and at the chart table.


The wall of my office is decorated with a 1928 "War Department" chart of Lake
Huron, on which the major routes are all marked with their compass point
headings, such as "SE by E 3/4 E." Which is fascinating, but wouldn't be of
much use with a modern compass!

And whenever the movie "North by Northwest" is shown on TV my wife knows she is
going to hear me say something about how it's NOT North by Northwest, but rather
Northwest by North. g

Steve Christensen

Quite possibly, something has been misquoted.
As you are aware, there are 32 points to a compass as we all use it today.
However, in the past, this was further divided into "quarter points",
which were frequently used for steering.
I'd ask him to double check the quote, especially for context. It may
have nothing to do with "quarter points" and just be someone's way of
saying a particular "point".

otn

Brian Whatcott wrote:
A correspondent wrote me with this question:

"a niggly question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:00:30 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

A correspondent wrote me with this question:

"a niggly question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


Thanks to your generous contributions, I was able to offer this
feedback from your efforts:


" Here is today's [selected] harvest:


From: "Carl Herzog" :

"North and by East" is not a point on the compass, though some sloppy
helmsmen or watch officer may have added the the word "and" for some
reason.
Below are the points of the compass with name, abbreviation and
degrees:

North N 0(360)
North by east N by E 11.25
North-northeast NNE 22.5
Northeast by north NE by N 33.75
Northeast NE 45
Northeast by east NE by E 56.25
East-northeast ENE 67.5
East by north E by N 78.75
East E 90
East by south E by S 101.25
East-southeast ESE 112.5
Southeast by east SE by E 123.75
Southeast SE 135
Southeast by south SE by S 146.25
South-southeast SSE 157.5
South by east S by E 168.75
South S 180
South by west S by W 191.25
South-southwest SSW 202.5
Southwest by south SW by S 213.75
Southwest SW 225
Southwest by west SW by W 236.25
West-southwest WSW 247.5
West by south W by S 258.75
West W 270
West by north W by N 281.25
West-northwest WNW 292.5
Northwest by west NW by W 303.75
Northwest NW 315
Northwest by north NW by N 326.25
North-northwest NNW 337.5
North by west N by W 348.75


--
Carl Herzog
Editor, Reed's Nautical Almanacs
Providence, Rhode Island
(401) 454-8300
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Jeff Morris"

You tweaked my curiosity ...

A web search on "North and by East" gives a number of very old
(16th and 17thcentury) references, plus one comment that "and by"
means a "half point." This would mean North by a half East, or 5 5/8
degrees. Thought this may be correct,
I'm unconvinced by one google reference.

Bowditch, in 1802, gives the more modern half and quarter points,
without any other terminology. Most of his navigation is given in
degrees and minutes, but courses are generally given in points. The
departure tables are provided both in quarter points and degrees and
minutes; trig and log values are only given in degrees & minutes.

-jeff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~
From: otnmbrd

Quite possibly, something has been misquoted.
As you are aware, there are 32 points to a compass as we all use it
today.
However, in the past, this was further divided into "quarter points",
which were frequently used for steering.
I'd ask him to double check the quote, especially for context. It may
have nothing to do with "quarter points" and just be someone's way of
saying a particular "point".

otn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Following up on Jeff Morris's suggested search:
A commercial land survey package:
http://users.rcn.com/deeds/metes.htm can use bearings with
"by the East", etc.


The following early text is carried by U Adelaide (Aus.)

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/hakluyt/northwest/chapter3.html

Richard Hakluyt
Voyages in Search of The North-West Passage

Here are some excerpts from it:

THE FIRST VOYAGE OF MASTER MARTIN FROBISHER
To the NorthWest for the search of the passage or strait
to China, written by Christopher Hall, and made in the
year of our Lord 1576.


The twelfth day, being over against Gravesend, by the Castle or
Blockhouse, we observed the latitude, which was 51 degrees 33 minutes,
and in that place the variation of the compass is 11 degrees and a
half. This day we departed from Gravesend at a west-south-west sun,
the wind at north and by east a fair gale, and sailed to the west part
of Tilbury Hope, and so turned down the Hope, and at a west sun the
wind came to the east-south-east, and we anchored in seven fathoms,
being low water.
....

This day, at four of the clock in the morning, being fair and clear,
we had sight of a headland as we judged bearing from us north and by
east, and we sailed north-east and by north to that land, and when we
came thither we could not get to the land for ice, for the ice
stretched along the coast, so that we could not come to the land by 5
leagues.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from http://www.maryrose.org/lcity/pilot/tnotes.htm

1538: The wind arose at North and by East enforcing us to weigh... now
the wind is
come 3 points more being North-North-East...
NRS Armada Papers, I, 223

[North by East to North East is three points.

Three points from NNE are North by West (backing) and
North East by East (veering).

Neither of these bearings seems like a reasonable conclusion from the
text.
It is just possible, though extremely unlikely, that "North and by
East"
was meant to represent "North East by East"]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This URL at U Pennsylvania,
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jkearney/gallathea1.html
shows John Lyly's play, Gallathea.


Here are some excerpts:
John Lyly (1554-1606)
Gallathea

Mar.

Then as you like this I will instruct you in all our secretes: for
there is not a clowte nor carde, nor boord, nor post, that hath not a
speciall name, or singuler nature.

Dicke

Well begin with your points, for I lacke onlie points in this world.

Mar.

North. North & by East. North North East. North-east and by North,
North-east. North-east and by East. East North-east, East and by
North. East. [Intended as East by North, I dare say? BW]

Dicke

Ile say it. North, north-east, North-east, Nore nore and by Nore-east.
I shall neuer doe it.

Mar.

Thys is but one quarter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This historical soc URL
http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/search/LsbgEvents_1729.html
offers the following:

Quoted from this source:
Southack New England Coasting Pilot [ca. 1729]]

"From the Light-house to CONIHASSET Rocks, East Part, is South-East
and by East 9 "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In each of these old texts, the meaning of "by the" is difficult to
distinguish from
the customary " "by"

Sincerely,

Brian Whatcott Altus OK Eureka!

I have a feeling from what you have below, that there is no difference
between the two points from the original correspondent, merely a
difference in writing them.... (olde? english versus new english?)
g I'm glad to see that no one asked me to list "1/4 points".

otn

Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:00:30 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:


A correspondent wrote me with this question:

"a niggly question that arose during some of my research.
What is the difference between a bearing of
"North by East," "North and by East"?

I could not provide a confident response.
Any ideas?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK



Thanks to your generous contributions, I was able to offer this
feedback from your efforts:


" Here is today's [selected] harvest:


From: "Carl Herzog" :

"North and by East" is not a point on the compass, though some sloppy
helmsmen or watch officer may have added the the word "and" for some
reason.
Below are the points of the compass with name, abbreviation and
degrees:

North N 0(360)
North by east N by E 11.25
North-northeast NNE 22.5
Northeast by north NE by N 33.75
Northeast NE 45
Northeast by east NE by E 56.25
East-northeast ENE 67.5
East by north E by N 78.75
East E 90
East by south E by S 101.25
East-southeast ESE 112.5
Southeast by east SE by E 123.75
Southeast SE 135
Southeast by south SE by S 146.25
South-southeast SSE 157.5
South by east S by E 168.75
South S 180
South by west S by W 191.25
South-southwest SSW 202.5
Southwest by south SW by S 213.75
Southwest SW 225
Southwest by west SW by W 236.25
West-southwest WSW 247.5
West by south W by S 258.75
West W 270
West by north W by N 281.25
West-northwest WNW 292.5
Northwest by west NW by W 303.75
Northwest NW 315
Northwest by north NW by N 326.25
North-northwest NNW 337.5
North by west N by W 348.75