Here's some neat Sea Ray pictures they'd rather you didn't look at:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

Even people who hate Mr Pascoe must admit his pictures DO show a lot,
even if you don't read the text about what Brunswick is doing.

How come a company that can build a bowling pin you can beat to hell
for 20 years nearly without a scratch, can't build a hull that's not
like an eggshell, destroyed by the dock??

I have a Sea Ray. It's not the company it was before Brunswick
Bayliner bought 'em out......



On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 18:17:44 -0500, "pmiller"
wrote:

After several years of looking and saving I am finally ready to buy my
first boat. Ive looked at boats from 26 to 34 ft and based on advice from
many people here I am
eliminating everything over 30' as too big for a first boat.
Today I looked at a 30' Sea Ray Sundancer 1989.
The boat will be used on the Chesapeake Bay in the Annapolis MD area.

Is there anyone here familiar with the Sundancers of that
age?

Id love to know if there were any problems with those boats or anything in
particular to look for.

I will of course have a survey done prior to purchase
Ive taken the powerboating course and have a little experience with a 19'
runabout and a 24' Cruise Along
which is now in the Calvert Marine Museum.

Thanks

Paul







Larry W4CSC
POWER is our friend!

I have a Sea Ray. It's not the company it was before Brunswick
Bayliner bought 'em out......

Isn't your Sea Ray the somewhat atypical, and long since discontinued Sea Ray
jet ski? (or something similar)?

Even people who hate Mr Pascoe must admit his pictures DO show a lot,
even if you don't read the text about what Brunswick is doing.

Notice the labels on the "chunks" at the top of the article? If they represent
what he claims they represent, then Formula and Chapparal are also suffering
from his alleged defect. It isn't just a Sea Ray or Brunswick problem.

He needs to take the one photo, which is an outright fraud, out of this
article. The picture on the right hand side showing somebody peeling a hull
apart is *not* representative of OEM construction. There was some previous
damage, patched with a "bondo" technique, that was glassed back over. You can
spot the bondo because it is a different color and texture than the laminate.
The photo shows a failed repair. Doesn't mean that Pascoe might not have some
sort of merit to his argument, but he's trying to prove it with a photo that
obviously does not show what he claims it shows.

Then there are these two very confusing paragraphs. In the first paragraph, he
states that chopped strand technique is no longer used in boat building. In the
second paragraph, he states that there is a limited use......just before he
states the use is rampant and a major cause of blistering.

*****begins

In the early years of small FRP boat building, a few companies tried making
boats from chopped strands of fibers, mixed with polyester resin and blown
through a gun into a mold. The length of these fibers was about 3-4 inches and
were usually curled like cut hair when viewed in the mold. Very quickly we
learned just how weak laminates made with short fibers are. Those
"blow-molded" boats tended to break up all to soon. The chopper-gun boats soon
disappeared from the scene. Today, things like shower stalls, truck fenders and
the Corvette automobile body are made with chopper guns because they don't
require great strength like a boat hull. For this reason, chopped strand is not
considered as a structural fiber.

That does not mean that chopped strand mat and chopper guns have disappeared
from boat shops. Chopped strand mat (CSM) is still used on all boats to prevent
the weave pattern of fabrics like roving from showing on the gel coat surface.
A very thin layer of mat is also used between heavy fabrics to prevent
concentrations of resin between the heavy fabrics. And for other uses where
very high strength is not required. One of our complaints about Taiwan boats
has always been that they make use of the chopper gun too much.

*******ends

What an alarmist. "Blow molded boats tend to break up all too soon....."
Right. Boats built with chopped strand mat just suddenly, and without warning,
dissolve while in use. Not. I'd like to hear of
a verifiable account of a boat that just randomly "broke up" like a distressed
egg shell for no apparent reason (such as a violent impact or an overwhelming
storm).

So, one can only wonder whether chopped strand has gone the way of the do-do
bird (and in factories I have visited it has not)...whether it is still used in
most boats to a limited degree......or whether it is so overused that it causes
delamination (internal blistering) in hulls that are not technically
constructed of a "laminate" at all.

In some cases, chopped strand is superior
to continuous strand roving. For example,
parts that have tight contours may be very difficult to lay properly with
traditional laminate but can be molded pretty effectively with chop.

To the original poster:

Sea Ray has always built a very decent boat. A 30' Sundancer isn't a blue water
battlewagon and won't be built like one, but for somewhat sheltered waters in
any sort of pleasure boat weather at all, (and worse), there is no reason to
fear for the structural integrity of the hull.

With any used boat, it's important to remember that the brand name only
represents what the boat started out to be....and a name that means pretty
decent quality in a new boat doesn't guarantee the condition of an older
vessel. (Could have been beat to death by an ignorant former owner- or damaged
in a hurricane like a lot of the boats used in certain alarmist web sites out
of Florida).

If the boat surveys well, enjoy it. Just don't go looking for the "perfect
storm". :-)

Nice post, but crap is crap. Doesn't matter what name Brunswick puts
on the side of it. The boat is built how Brunswick says it will be
built....TO SELL, not to keep. Lots of boats are built like crap, not
just Sea Ray. But, alas, Sea Ray is, unfortunately, a fairly good
example of what USED to be a fairly nice boat, before the Brunswick
bureaucrats started cutting corners to jack up profits.

There's a LOT of Bayliner in EVERY Brunswick boat. Sea Ray is no
longer an exception, no matter how slick the magazine or slick
advertising and dealer hype is spun.



On 07 Mar 2004 08:33:51 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

I have a Sea Ray. It's not the company it was before Brunswick
Bayliner bought 'em out......

Isn't your Sea Ray the somewhat atypical, and long since discontinued Sea Ray
jet ski? (or something similar)?

Even people who hate Mr Pascoe must admit his pictures DO show a lot,
even if you don't read the text about what Brunswick is doing.

Notice the labels on the "chunks" at the top of the article? If they represent
what he claims they represent, then Formula and Chapparal are also suffering
from his alleged defect. It isn't just a Sea Ray or Brunswick problem.

He needs to take the one photo, which is an outright fraud, out of this
article. The picture on the right hand side showing somebody peeling a hull
apart is *not* representative of OEM construction. There was some previous
damage, patched with a "bondo" technique, that was glassed back over. You can
spot the bondo because it is a different color and texture than the laminate.
The photo shows a failed repair. Doesn't mean that Pascoe might not have some
sort of merit to his argument, but he's trying to prove it with a photo that
obviously does not show what he claims it shows.

Then there are these two very confusing paragraphs. In the first paragraph, he
states that chopped strand technique is no longer used in boat building. In the
second paragraph, he states that there is a limited use......just before he
states the use is rampant and a major cause of blistering.

*****begins

In the early years of small FRP boat building, a few companies tried making
boats from chopped strands of fibers, mixed with polyester resin and blown
through a gun into a mold. The length of these fibers was about 3-4 inches and
were usually curled like cut hair when viewed in the mold. Very quickly we
learned just how weak laminates made with short fibers are. Those
"blow-molded" boats tended to break up all to soon. The chopper-gun boats soon
disappeared from the scene. Today, things like shower stalls, truck fenders and
the Corvette automobile body are made with chopper guns because they don't
require great strength like a boat hull. For this reason, chopped strand is not
considered as a structural fiber.

That does not mean that chopped strand mat and chopper guns have disappeared
from boat shops. Chopped strand mat (CSM) is still used on all boats to prevent
the weave pattern of fabrics like roving from showing on the gel coat surface.
A very thin layer of mat is also used between heavy fabrics to prevent
concentrations of resin between the heavy fabrics. And for other uses where
very high strength is not required. One of our complaints about Taiwan boats
has always been that they make use of the chopper gun too much.

*******ends

What an alarmist. "Blow molded boats tend to break up all too soon....."
Right. Boats built with chopped strand mat just suddenly, and without warning,
dissolve while in use. Not. I'd like to hear of
a verifiable account of a boat that just randomly "broke up" like a distressed
egg shell for no apparent reason (such as a violent impact or an overwhelming
storm).

So, one can only wonder whether chopped strand has gone the way of the do-do
bird (and in factories I have visited it has not)...whether it is still used in
most boats to a limited degree......or whether it is so overused that it causes
delamination (internal blistering) in hulls that are not technically
constructed of a "laminate" at all.

In some cases, chopped strand is superior
to continuous strand roving. For example,
parts that have tight contours may be very difficult to lay properly with
traditional laminate but can be molded pretty effectively with chop.

To the original poster:

Sea Ray has always built a very decent boat. A 30' Sundancer isn't a blue water
battlewagon and won't be built like one, but for somewhat sheltered waters in
any sort of pleasure boat weather at all, (and worse), there is no reason to
fear for the structural integrity of the hull.

With any used boat, it's important to remember that the brand name only
represents what the boat started out to be....and a name that means pretty
decent quality in a new boat doesn't guarantee the condition of an older
vessel. (Could have been beat to death by an ignorant former owner- or damaged
in a hurricane like a lot of the boats used in certain alarmist web sites out
of Florida).

If the boat surveys well, enjoy it. Just don't go looking for the "perfect
storm". :-)



Larry W4CSC
POWER is our friend!

Nice post, but crap is crap. Doesn't matter what name Brunswick puts
on the side of it. The boat is built how Brunswick says it will be
built....TO SELL, not to keep. Lots of boats are built like crap, not
just Sea Ray. But, alas, Sea Ray is, unfortunately, a fairly good
example of what USED to be a fairly nice boat, before the Brunswick
bureaucrats started cutting corners to jack up profits.

There's a LOT of Bayliner in EVERY Brunswick boat. Sea Ray is no
longer an exception, no matter how slick the magazine or slick
advertising and dealer hype is spun.



On 07 Mar 2004 08:33:51 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

I have a Sea Ray. It's not the company it was before Brunswick
Bayliner bought 'em out......

Isn't your Sea Ray the somewhat atypical, and long since discontinued Sea Ray
jet ski? (or something similar)?

Even people who hate Mr Pascoe must admit his pictures DO show a lot,
even if you don't read the text about what Brunswick is doing.

Notice the labels on the "chunks" at the top of the article? If they represent
what he claims they represent, then Formula and Chapparal are also suffering
from his alleged defect. It isn't just a Sea Ray or Brunswick problem.

He needs to take the one photo, which is an outright fraud, out of this
article. The picture on the right hand side showing somebody peeling a hull
apart is *not* representative of OEM construction. There was some previous
damage, patched with a "bondo" technique, that was glassed back over. You can
spot the bondo because it is a different color and texture than the laminate.
The photo shows a failed repair. Doesn't mean that Pascoe might not have some
sort of merit to his argument, but he's trying to prove it with a photo that
obviously does not show what he claims it shows.

Then there are these two very confusing paragraphs. In the first paragraph, he
states that chopped strand technique is no longer used in boat building. In the
second paragraph, he states that there is a limited use......just before he
states the use is rampant and a major cause of blistering.

*****begins

In the early years of small FRP boat building, a few companies tried making
boats from chopped strands of fibers, mixed with polyester resin and blown
through a gun into a mold. The length of these fibers was about 3-4 inches and
were usually curled like cut hair when viewed in the mold. Very quickly we
learned just how weak laminates made with short fibers are. Those
"blow-molded" boats tended to break up all to soon. The chopper-gun boats soon
disappeared from the scene. Today, things like shower stalls, truck fenders and
the Corvette automobile body are made with chopper guns because they don't
require great strength like a boat hull. For this reason, chopped strand is not
considered as a structural fiber.

That does not mean that chopped strand mat and chopper guns have disappeared
from boat shops. Chopped strand mat (CSM) is still used on all boats to prevent
the weave pattern of fabrics like roving from showing on the gel coat surface.
A very thin layer of mat is also used between heavy fabrics to prevent
concentrations of resin between the heavy fabrics. And for other uses where
very high strength is not required. One of our complaints about Taiwan boats
has always been that they make use of the chopper gun too much.

*******ends

What an alarmist. "Blow molded boats tend to break up all too soon....."
Right. Boats built with chopped strand mat just suddenly, and without warning,
dissolve while in use. Not. I'd like to hear of
a verifiable account of a boat that just randomly "broke up" like a distressed
egg shell for no apparent reason (such as a violent impact or an overwhelming
storm).

So, one can only wonder whether chopped strand has gone the way of the do-do
bird (and in factories I have visited it has not)...whether it is still used in
most boats to a limited degree......or whether it is so overused that it causes
delamination (internal blistering) in hulls that are not technically
constructed of a "laminate" at all.

In some cases, chopped strand is superior
to continuous strand roving. For example,
parts that have tight contours may be very difficult to lay properly with
traditional laminate but can be molded pretty effectively with chop.

To the original poster:

Sea Ray has always built a very decent boat. A 30' Sundancer isn't a blue water
battlewagon and won't be built like one, but for somewhat sheltered waters in
any sort of pleasure boat weather at all, (and worse), there is no reason to
fear for the structural integrity of the hull.

With any used boat, it's important to remember that the brand name only
represents what the boat started out to be....and a name that means pretty
decent quality in a new boat doesn't guarantee the condition of an older
vessel. (Could have been beat to death by an ignorant former owner- or damaged
in a hurricane like a lot of the boats used in certain alarmist web sites out
of Florida).

If the boat surveys well, enjoy it. Just don't go looking for the "perfect
storm". :-)



Larry W4CSC
POWER is our friend!

I have a Sea Ray. It's not the company it was before Brunswick
Bayliner bought 'em out......

Isn't your Sea Ray the somewhat atypical, and long since discontinued Sea Ray
jet ski? (or something similar)?

Even people who hate Mr Pascoe must admit his pictures DO show a lot,
even if you don't read the text about what Brunswick is doing.

Notice the labels on the "chunks" at the top of the article? If they represent
what he claims they represent, then Formula and Chapparal are also suffering
from his alleged defect. It isn't just a Sea Ray or Brunswick problem.

He needs to take the one photo, which is an outright fraud, out of this
article. The picture on the right hand side showing somebody peeling a hull
apart is *not* representative of OEM construction. There was some previous
damage, patched with a "bondo" technique, that was glassed back over. You can
spot the bondo because it is a different color and texture than the laminate.
The photo shows a failed repair. Doesn't mean that Pascoe might not have some
sort of merit to his argument, but he's trying to prove it with a photo that
obviously does not show what he claims it shows.

Then there are these two very confusing paragraphs. In the first paragraph, he
states that chopped strand technique is no longer used in boat building. In the
second paragraph, he states that there is a limited use......just before he
states the use is rampant and a major cause of blistering.

*****begins

In the early years of small FRP boat building, a few companies tried making
boats from chopped strands of fibers, mixed with polyester resin and blown
through a gun into a mold. The length of these fibers was about 3-4 inches and
were usually curled like cut hair when viewed in the mold. Very quickly we
learned just how weak laminates made with short fibers are. Those
"blow-molded" boats tended to break up all to soon. The chopper-gun boats soon
disappeared from the scene. Today, things like shower stalls, truck fenders and
the Corvette automobile body are made with chopper guns because they don't
require great strength like a boat hull. For this reason, chopped strand is not
considered as a structural fiber.

That does not mean that chopped strand mat and chopper guns have disappeared
from boat shops. Chopped strand mat (CSM) is still used on all boats to prevent
the weave pattern of fabrics like roving from showing on the gel coat surface.
A very thin layer of mat is also used between heavy fabrics to prevent
concentrations of resin between the heavy fabrics. And for other uses where
very high strength is not required. One of our complaints about Taiwan boats
has always been that they make use of the chopper gun too much.

*******ends

What an alarmist. "Blow molded boats tend to break up all too soon....."
Right. Boats built with chopped strand mat just suddenly, and without warning,
dissolve while in use. Not. I'd like to hear of
a verifiable account of a boat that just randomly "broke up" like a distressed
egg shell for no apparent reason (such as a violent impact or an overwhelming
storm).

So, one can only wonder whether chopped strand has gone the way of the do-do
bird (and in factories I have visited it has not)...whether it is still used in
most boats to a limited degree......or whether it is so overused that it causes
delamination (internal blistering) in hulls that are not technically
constructed of a "laminate" at all.

In some cases, chopped strand is superior
to continuous strand roving. For example,
parts that have tight contours may be very difficult to lay properly with
traditional laminate but can be molded pretty effectively with chop.

To the original poster:

Sea Ray has always built a very decent boat. A 30' Sundancer isn't a blue water
battlewagon and won't be built like one, but for somewhat sheltered waters in
any sort of pleasure boat weather at all, (and worse), there is no reason to
fear for the structural integrity of the hull.

With any used boat, it's important to remember that the brand name only
represents what the boat started out to be....and a name that means pretty
decent quality in a new boat doesn't guarantee the condition of an older
vessel. (Could have been beat to death by an ignorant former owner- or damaged
in a hurricane like a lot of the boats used in certain alarmist web sites out
of Florida).

If the boat surveys well, enjoy it. Just don't go looking for the "perfect
storm". :-)