Wilbur and Redcloud

As long-termers here know, I (well, we) had a wreck (not a sinking)
which later involved an extraction courtesy of the USCG. Sure wish
I'd had my camera, as apparently the MIA Sector doesn't do video. It
was an adventure I'd like to have had a record of, and the FOIA aside,
it seems impossible to get a record of the occasion from the USCG (I
tried, with one of the reps there, for months).

I don't recall Wilbur's persona being on the scene at the time, but
that could be just because I'd published my post-mortem (well, that's
extreme; post-event) analysis of how we'd gotten to that point, in my
various mailing lists and the several forums I annoy, meeting a
firestorm of response, of which Wilbur's might have gone unnoticed in
the maelstrom. The response was, to be charitable, "mixed" -
including the variety of what we've seen here about the Redcloud.

Back to Wilbur, I don't recall his weighing in on my "I learned about
Sailing from that" (a riff on the last page of Flying Magazine's
examination of crashes), but there were plenty of others.

We didn't have mechanical issues - they were pretty much human error
issues - but my analysis was fairly close to Wilbur's in style. "How
did we get to that position, and what might we have done differently?"
was the nature of my post. Likewise, the responses were fairly
similar (knives digging/character attacks aside) to what we've seen
about Redcloud - lots of sympathy and charitable response, and lots of
armchair quarterbacking, along with polite inquiries along the lines
of "what happened?" While we did have several mechanical incidents
(strong enough winds to shred a tightly furled genny, remove and take
flight a wind generator and newly installed hailer horn, along with
one leg entirely and one tab on the remaining leg of the windex,
e.g.), none were voyage-threatening. The voyage ended on a rock, and
the boat was stout enough to survive the experience and sail again...

Yes, we made several avoidable errors. Most of the knife throwers laid
it to inexperience or simple boneheadedness. There may have been some
- or, even, a lot - of that. But, on reflection, long after I wrote
that, the real culprit was fatigue. We'd been going at it, hammer and
tongs, for months, and didn't take time for decompression before
setting out. It caught up with us in the end.

However, like Wilbur's latest blast postulated, there were many points
along the way in which a different decision would have resulted in an
entirely different outcome. It's very easy to armchair quarterback,
and entirely unfair, as those who do/did so weren't on the boat to see
what the realities were. However, analysis (without the character
attacks) is entirely appropriate. It might save someone else from
having the same experience, later. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc., but
when it comes from the participant, it's more like, "Here's where we
screwed up."

So, for us, as we thoroughly decompress ashore, and prepare for an
upcoming long voyage, we recognize that fatigue may join us,
regardless of how well we're rested, due to the length of time out
there. We learned about sailing from that, so to speak, and will be
especially vigilant about both getting our rest, but more so, to
doublecheck our decisions if we're tired. Fortunately, our routing
won't have many opportunities for rocks :{)) until we get
"there" (Maine)...

You knew there was a point in this, right? It is that, character
attack and tone aside, and without the benefit of participation from
Joe, I agree with Wilbur on that one. The presentation could benefit
from the "kinder, gentler" approach advocated by the political party
Wilbur favors, but otherwise, it's probably pretty close.

We didn't lose our boat - but we sure took a lot of flack when we
talked about it :{)) However, once we got past the "don't you dare
set sail within 25 miles of me, you danger-to-all-marine-traffic" set,
there were constructive suggestions we've incorporated into our
mindset.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

On Apr 11, 2:45*pm, Skip Gundlach wrote:
Wilbur and Redcloud

As long-termers here know, I (well, we) had a wreck (not a sinking)
which later involved an extraction courtesy of the USCG. *Sure wish
I'd had my camera, as apparently the MIA Sector doesn't do video. *It
was an adventure I'd like to have had a record of, and the FOIA aside,
it seems impossible to get a record of the occasion from the USCG (I
tried, with one of the reps there, for months).

I don't recall Wilbur's persona being on the scene at the time, but
that could be just because I'd published my post-mortem (well, that's
extreme; post-event) analysis of how we'd gotten to that point, in my
various mailing lists and the several forums I annoy, meeting a
firestorm of response, of which Wilbur's might have gone unnoticed in
the maelstrom. *The response was, to be charitable, "mixed" -
including the variety of what we've seen here about the Redcloud.

Back to Wilbur, I don't recall his weighing in on my "I learned about
Sailing from that" (a riff on the last page of Flying Magazine's
examination of crashes), but there were plenty of others.

We didn't have mechanical issues - they were pretty much human error
issues - but my analysis was fairly close to Wilbur's in style. *"How
did we get to that position, and what might we have done differently?"
was the nature of my post. *Likewise, the responses were fairly
similar (knives digging/character attacks aside) to what we've seen
about Redcloud - lots of sympathy and charitable response, and lots of
armchair quarterbacking, along with polite inquiries along the lines
of "what happened?" *While we did have several mechanical incidents
(strong enough winds to shred a tightly furled genny, remove and take
flight a wind generator and newly installed hailer horn, along with
one leg entirely and one tab on the remaining leg of the windex,
e.g.), none were voyage-threatening. *The voyage ended on a rock, and
the boat was stout enough to survive the experience and sail again...

Yes, we made several avoidable errors. Most of the knife throwers laid
it to inexperience or simple boneheadedness. There may have been some
- or, even, a lot - of that. *But, on reflection, long after I wrote
that, the real culprit was fatigue. We'd been going at it, hammer and
tongs, for months, and didn't take time for decompression before
setting out. *It caught up with us in the end.

However, like Wilbur's latest blast postulated, there were many points
along the way in which a different decision would have resulted in an
entirely different outcome. *It's very easy to armchair quarterback,
and entirely unfair, as those who do/did so weren't on the boat to see
what the realities were. *However, analysis (without the character
attacks) is entirely appropriate. *It might save someone else from
having the same experience, later. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc., but
when it comes from the participant, it's more like, "Here's where we
screwed up."

So, for us, as we thoroughly decompress ashore, and prepare for an
upcoming long voyage, we recognize that fatigue may join us,
regardless of how well we're rested, due to the length of time out
there. *We learned about sailing from that, so to speak, and will be
especially vigilant about both getting our rest, but more so, to
doublecheck our decisions if we're tired. *Fortunately, our routing
won't have many opportunities for rocks :{)) until we get
"there" (Maine)...

You knew there was a point in this, right? *It is that, character
attack and tone aside, and without the benefit of participation from
Joe, I agree with Wilbur on that one. *The presentation could benefit
from the "kinder, gentler" approach advocated by the political party
Wilbur favors, but otherwise, it's probably pretty close.

We didn't lose our boat - but we sure took a lot of flack when we
talked about it :{)) *However, once we got past the "don't you dare
set sail within 25 miles of me, you danger-to-all-marine-traffic" set,
there were constructive suggestions we've incorporated into our
mindset.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig *KI4MPC
See our galleries atwww.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us athttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/orhttp://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

*"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands. *You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

Hi skip

i was wondering where you went. how many qualifying sea service days
did the REC give you??
bob

Skip Gundlach wrote in news:4bef688d-619c-4908-
:

Wilbur and Redcloud

As long-termers here know, I (well, we) had a wreck (not a sinking)
which later involved an extraction courtesy of the USCG. Sure wish
I'd had my camera, as apparently the MIA Sector doesn't do video. It
was an adventure I'd like to have had a record of, and the FOIA aside,
it seems impossible to get a record of the occasion from the USCG (I
tried, with one of the reps there, for months).
largish snip


Wow, with your dubious record be sure to equip your boat with one of
those new fancy 406 EPIRBS. And get your last will and testament in
order. And a generous donation to science would be nice.

--
W. Mouch, State Science Institute

Wilbur is a net asset to this group. He is knowledgeable and expresses his
opinion well. He seems to bring out those who would not otherwise
participate. I think many who dislike him are jealous or on drugs.

Midas

"Midas Mulligan" wrote in
:

Wilbur is a net asset to this group. He is knowledgeable and expresses
his opinion well. He seems to bring out those who would not otherwise
participate. I think many who dislike him are jealous or on drugs.

Midas





You're close but no banana. Wilbur is not an asset. He's just plain an
'ass'!!!! People such as Bruce in Bangkok have got the right idea. Kill the
******* before he destroys the group. Restrict his access. Censor his
posts. Complain to his ISP. Poison his dogs. You can't have rogue people
like that going around causing chaos and destruction. People have got to
all toe the line for the good of all. People come last. The good of the
group, the city, the state and the country has to come first.

--
W. Mouch, State Science Institute

In article ,
Wesley Mouch wrote:

You're close but no banana. Wilbur is not an asset. He's just plain an
'ass'!!!! People such as Bruce in Bangkok have got the right idea. Kill the
******* before he destroys the group. Restrict his access. Censor his
posts. Complain to his ISP. Poison his dogs. You can't have rogue people
like that going around causing chaos and destruction. People have got to
all toe the line for the good of all. People come last. The good of the
group, the city, the state and the country has to come first.

--
W. Mouch, State Science Institute

Well spoken, like a GOOD Commie..... er Socialist, to Politically
Correct, which I certainly am NOT... The State is EVERYTHING, and the
peasants are NOTHING. Here is the USA we look at things a bit
differently. We say that folks have "Certain Inalienable Rights", and
we enumerate those in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution.
Those "Rights" can NOT be abridged, set aside, or removed, buy the
Government, or any other Citizen. Free Speech is one of those "Rights",
and I, for one, will Fight and Die, for Old Wilbur's "Right" to say what
ever comes into the Pea Sized Brain of his. If he states something I
have a problem with, I have the same "Right" to state my opposition, and
publish it as far and as wide as I choose. This just makes us ALL,
actually have to DO our own thinking. Yes, I know that is Hard,
sometimes, but it is after all one of the best ways to LEARN. If you
don't like to read what Old Wilbur has to say, "Killfile" the Idiot, and
be done with it, or if you choose to respond to his blatherings, just
"GO For It" , yourself, but leave the Government and the Personal
Retribution, out of it. You'll live longer, and your stress level will
slowly drop back to NORMAL.......

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

On 2008-04-11 18:45:20 -0400, Skip Gundlach said:

Yes, we made several avoidable errors. Most of the knife throwers laid
it to inexperience or simple boneheadedness. There may have been some
- or, even, a lot - of that. But, on reflection, long after I wrote
that, the real culprit was fatigue.

I'd say fatigue due to inexperience, which isn't all that uncommon.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:30:13 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

I'd say fatigue due to inexperience, which isn't all that uncommon.

That's a good way to put it. With experience you learn to first avoid
fatigue if at all possible, recognize the symptoms if it does happen,
and be wary of the impaired judgement that results.

When I'm planning a multi-day passage I like to analyze the "bail out"
points and alternatives in advance, chart way points and routes for
them, and have a conscious "go/no go" decion making process before
continuing further. There will always be times when you err on the
side of caution but I've come to view that as a good thing.