On May 28, 2:37*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote:
On May 28, 3:33*am, wrote:
Those diagrams don't have the information you would need to answer the question intelligently or correctly.

Actually, the diagrams of the motor components were presented
primarily so Rick could get a look at the inner workings of the little
OB. *They weren't meant to be a definitive problem-solver of any sort.

It wouldn't matter if it did. Simple logic alone says that if a
cooling telltale operates intermittantly when the engine is running
fine, it is completely useless as a telltale to warn you when there is
trouble.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Only if one is putting all of one's marbles in the "tell-tale"
basket and assuming (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) there is
no other warning system that the motor is overheating. *

If the tell tale operates as you say it does, then it doesn't need to exist at
all.

Perhaps there
could be a loud alarm when the temperature reaches critical levels or
maybe a microchip inside connected to an artificial voice device talks
to you in a very loud voice warning the operator of the imminent
danger or maybe there's an "idiot light" like on cars or (gasp) even
an gauge to monitor internal motor temps.

More wishful dreaming


Unless, of course, an outboard you had never heard of came out that
had a device to warn the operator of overheating.


Is the following a fair analogy? *In an automobile engine, when the
thermostat opens (indicating the water in the 'jacket' around the
engine is getting too hot and it's time to be cooled), it "pees" the
hot water back into the radiator to be cooled anew whereas, when the
outboard gets too hot, the thermostat opens and "pees" the water back
into the lake and the water pump of the outboard brings in new cool
water from the lake (in essence, the outboard motor's "radiator"),
just like the radiator sends cooled water to the engine jacket to
replace the water "peed" out by the thermostat, to keep the outboard
running at a normal operating temperature and preventing damage.

So, (just speculating here), if the little Suzuki operates the same
way, then water would NOT be coming out of the "pee holes" all the
time, would it? *It would only be expelled when necessary (i.e., when
the internal thermostat said the water currently cooling the motor was
too hot to properly do its job and fresh, cooler water was needed.
Therefore, it would "pee" out the old and bring in fresh, cooler water
from the lake to replace it --- ONLY when necessary...thus the
"intermittent" ejection of water.

Nope. You have it completely wrong from start to finish to the point of
absurdity. The pee hole is an INDICATOR. It is not the outlet for all of the
water in the cooling circuits. The amount of water that comes out of it is very
small and could never be the outlet for all of the cooling water. The water in
an outboard constantly circulates from the pump, up the leg and back down again
to exit either through the center of the prop or an exhaust port. When the
thermostat opens, it ADDITIONALLY allows the water to additionally circulate
through cooling passages in the cyclinder head and crankcase to cool them. The
purpose of the pee-hole is to tell you that the water pump is not running dry,
and is pumping water up to the engine area where the pee-hole resides. That's a
critical, do or die, piece of information.

Okay, in an automobile, what device performs the do or die piece of
information to indicate that the car's water pump is working or not?
A temp gauge or red light? IOW, to say that the water pump is running
dry is also to say the motor is overheating, isn't it? Doesn't one
immediately lead to the other? Therefore, it would seem like all the
processes are really interconnected.

So you're saying the water coming out of the pee holes is not water
being released by the thermostat in the Suzuki DF2.5? Yes or no?

Just my attempt at "simple logic" as stated by the previous
author. *Am I way off here in this stab at deductive reasoning?

Yes. You couldn't be further off if you knew everything about engines and were
deliberately making up a fairy tale.

But didn't you think it was an interesting fairy tale? Finally, if
this Suzuki outboard of mine runs for several years with water only
INTERMITTENTLY coming out of the "pee" holes and it never overheats,
will you still cling to the notion that it's a defective piece of
equipment? IOW, will you argue and continue to denigrate
a successful and non-defective outboard motor design?

Finally, is the goat that is sacrificed at the altar of the pee
hole required to be a virgin nanny? lol

-Jay
(still sorting all of this out)

Jay,
At the risk of getting caught up in the back and forth between you and
Salty (and by the way I haven't even read that whole sub thread. It
just looked like it was going nowhere) let me take a shot at
explaining wherein the miscommunication lies.
Using your automobile example. If you drive a car that has an overheat
light on the dash and it intermittently turns itself on when actually
the engine's water temp is at its normal level, that wouldn't mean
your engine is defective. It would mean your indicator light is
defective. Because it's designed to turn itself on only when the water
temp is too hot. That situation would be analogous to a telltale that
intermittently works when there's nothing wrong with the water pump.
You could never know for sure whether to believe it or not. That's not
to say there's anything wrong with your motor. It's saying the design
of the indicator is questionable.
HowEVER, if I understand correctly, from up thread somewhere, even
when you're not getting a steady stream of water from the tell-tale,
you're at least supposed to see a water spray as long as the water
pump is functioning. So as long as you can see the spray easily,
you've still got a reliable indicator. Maybe Salty didn't see the
"spray" explanation or maybe he's going under the assumption that the
spray isn't visible enough. -shug- I dunno. Frankly, I would have to
see the spray with my own two eyes to voice an opinion on that.
Anyhow, that's my 2 cents on the subject.
Rick

On Wed, 28 May 08, Jay wrote:
Okay, in an automobile, what device performs the do or die piece of
information to indicate that the car's water pump is working or not?
A temp gauge or red light? IOW, to say that the water pump is running
dry is also to say the motor is overheating, isn't it? Doesn't one
immediately lead to the other? Therefore, it would seem like all the
processes are really interconnected.

So you're saying the water coming out of the pee holes is not water
being released by the thermostat in the Suzuki DF2.5? Yes or no?

Just my attempt at "simple logic" as stated by the previous
author. *Am I way off here in this stab at deductive reasoning?

Yes. You couldn't be further off if you knew everything about engines and were
deliberately making up a fairy tale.

But didn't you think it was an interesting fairy tale? Finally, if
this Suzuki outboard of mine runs for several years with water only
INTERMITTENTLY coming out of the "pee" holes and it never overheats,
will you still cling to the notion that it's a defective piece of
equipment? IOW, will you argue and continue to denigrate
a successful and non-defective outboard motor design?

Finally, is the goat that is sacrificed at the altar of the pee
hole required to be a virgin nanny? lol

-Jay
(still sorting all of this out)

On May 30, 4:52*pm, wrote:
Jay,
At the risk of getting caught up in the back and forth between you and
Salty (and by the way I haven't even read that whole sub thread. It
just looked like it was going nowhere) let me take a shot at
explaining wherein the miscommunication lies.

Actually, Rick, there was never any "miscommunication" per se. I
accepted the fact that the entire scenario regarding the operation of
my new outboard and the apparent discrepancies in the manual were
disconcerting. None of that had anything to do with being the target
of an egotistical ******* like Salty whose primary responses to ideas
I was just tossing into the fire was to call me names such as dimwit.
However, I noticed that seems to be a modus operandi with him as I've
noticed his derogatory remarks toward others in previous threads.

Contributions from you and others have been helpful in trying to
resolve this matter. You and others have kept an open mind in trying
to assess this situation while Salty seems to be unable to budge from
his one-track approach to life roughly translated to "I have my
opinion, do NOT confuse me with the facts!" Having him leave the
thread was a breath of fresh air but I see he's back so I guess I can
add liar to his resume.

Using your automobile example. If you drive a car that has an overheat light on the dash and it intermittently turns itself on when actually the engine's water temp is at its normal level, that wouldn't mean your engine is defective. It would mean your indicator light is defective. Because it's designed to turn itself on only when the water temp is too hot. That situation would be analogous to a telltale that
intermittently works when there's nothing wrong with the water pump.
You could never know for sure whether to believe it or not. That's not
to say there's anything wrong with your motor. It's saying the design
of the indicator is questionable.

I totally agree with that part. There needs to be some sort of
indicator that's readily observable and indicative of motor
overheating and/or water pump failure; however, my examples comparing
with automobiles were not a statement of fact. I was just wondering
out loud and fully expected disagreement on some points but
disagreement with class, not resorting to pompous name-calling like
the infantile Salty seems to favor.

However, if I understand correctly, from up thread somewhere, even when you're not getting a steady stream of water from the tell-tale, you're at least supposed to see a water spray as long as the water pump is functioning. So as long as you can see the spray easily, you've still got a reliable indicator.

Unfortunately, that's not even something Suzuki mechanics, the
manual and Customer Service can seem to agree on or how much is to be
seen.

Maybe Salty didn't see the "spray" explanation or maybe he's going
under the assumption that the spray isn't visible enough. -shug- I
dunno.

In Salty's iron-clad mind, encased in cement, if that sucker isn't
"peeing up a storm" at all times, the motor is a piece of dangerous,
defective crap. LOL

Frankly, I would have to see the spray with my own two eyes to voice an opinion on that. Anyhow, that's my 2 cents on the subject.
Rick

Actually, Rick, that worth more than 2 cents, mainly because you
seem to be keeping an open mind and exploring every possible angle for
the inconsistencies of that motor's operation.

Thanks, Jay

On May 28, 5:13*pm, wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT), Jay wrote:
Okay, in an automobile, what device performs the do or die piece of
information to indicate that the car's water pump is working or not?

An automobile does not have the same needs as an outboard. For openers, the
outboard is raw water cooled and the auto is a closed system. Major differences. The pumps are entirekly different too. The outboard needs a very different type of water pump. Comparing the cars water pump and cooling system to your outboard is as reasobale as comparing it to the space shuttle.

Interesting that none of your response addressed the specific
question I asked in the paragraph before. None of your response post
answered the question posed: "in an automobile, what device performs
the do or die piece of
information to indicate that the car's water pump is working or not?"

A temp gauge or red light? *IOW, to say that the water pump is running
dry is also to say the motor is overheating, isn't it? *

Two different things in an outboard. running dry is instant death to the water
pump. A car doesn't have to suck up water from an outside sorce to
lubricate the water pump. It can be run dry a lot longer than the one
in your outboard. That's
why a tell tale is MANDATORY.

Actually another non-specific response to a specific question.
Basically, I asked, true or false, if the water pump runs dry, does
the motor overheat, And, of course, the only possible obvious answer
is TRUE. Also, you stated "in an outboard, running dry is instant
death to the water pump." And you know with absolute certainty that
there are no outboard brands manufactured anywhere on the planet that
can be run without immersing them in water (IOW, run dry with no
damage whatsoever to the water pump). If there was an outboard motor
made where water immersion was not necessary to run it and no damage
would be done to the water pump doing so, then saying a tell-tale is
MANDATORY would then be a false statement, wouldn't it?

Doesn't one immediately lead to the other? *Therefore, it would seem like all the processes are really interconnected.

Only if you don't understand the basic differences betyween the two dissimilar
systems you are trying to compare.

So you are basically saying a failed water pump would not cause
engine overheating??? If a failed water pump DID CAUSE said
overheating and resultant engine failure, then wouldn't my statement
"Doesn't one immediately lead to the other?" be TRUE?

So you're saying the water coming out of the pee holes is not water
being released by the thermostat in the Suzuki DF2.5? *Yes or no?

I have no idea where you are headed with this question.

Not heading anywhere, just looking for a simple yes or no answer.


The water coming out of the pee-hole is forced out by pressure from
the water pump regardless if the thermostat is open or closed.

So you are saying that there is no outboard manufactured on the
face of the Earth wherein the discharge from the "pee hole" is
governed by the thermostat?

Finally, if
this Suzuki outboard of mine runs for several years with water only
INTERMITTENTLY coming out of the "pee" holes and it never overheats,
will you still cling to the notion that it's a defective piece of
equipment? *IOW, will you argue and continue to denigrate
a successful and non-defective outboard motor design?


Yes. If I can't always be sure with a quick glance that the water pump is
working, I would not keep that motor. I would return it immediately even if I
took a loss to do so. If that is the way it is suposed to be, then I would judge
it to be a piece of poorly and improperly designed crap that can not be depended
upon. I wouldn't use it, or own it, and If I sold it, I would have to disclose
that problem with it. *

So you would ignore the fact that the motor ran for years without
constant discharge from the pee-holes and never overheated and/or
seized-up. You would still call it a piece of crap. Why, because its
longevity would prove you wrong and not being right is a mortal sin
too great for you to absorb? Reminds me of the old adage, if it's not
broke, don't fix it. IF that motor is designed to operate like it
does WITHOUT constantly "peeing" and it continues to operate that way
without overheating, damage to the water pump an/or seizure of the
motor, then guess what? Your know-it-all statements are DEAD-ON W-R-O-
N-G! A tough pill to swallow for egomaniacs but easier with a couple
of bottles of Corona. And calling me a dimwit and saying Casady's
calculations are "baloney" might imply you check night school for a
refresher course in human relations/communication.


Finally, is the goat that is sacrificed at the altar of the pee
hole required to be a virgin nanny? *lol

On further reflection, I bet you DO require a virgin goat for the
sacrifice.

-Jay
(STILL sorting it all out and waiting for the final word from Wilbur
Hubbard on the matter).

On May 29, 3:07*am, wrote:

Okay. You are a troll. I'm not going to waste any more effort on your mindless
nonsense.

Ooooh, classic response. Someone actually challenges you to back
up your varied and wild pontifications and answer logical questions
and when those questions begin to befuddle you and your stationary
brain, replete with your preset notions about everything, you
immediately start to call people names like dimwit, call what they ask
"mindless nonsense" and tell others what they do are "baloney" and
finally, when all else fails, you utilize the most infantile
accusation of all --- "you're a troll." lol

At least you made a wise choice in your last statement, mainly because
nobody wants to hear your pompous, egomaniacal spewings anymore and
you not participating in this thread again is the best contribution
you could ever make to the thread.

And, btw, when my little Suzuki is still putting along two years from
now with water only being ejected INTERMITTENTLY through the urination
hole, YOU'LL STILL BE WRONG!!!!!

-Jay
(appreciative of much of the fine advice he's received from the truly
knowledgable gentlemen in this group and not going to miss the
egomaniac one tiny bit)

On Thu, 29 May 2008 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote:

And, btw, when my little Suzuki is still putting along two years from
now with water only being ejected INTERMITTENTLY through the urination
hole, YOU'LL STILL BE WRONG!!!!!

I feel about the same way about an intermittant pilot hole as I do
about a water temperature gauge that only works part of the time. BTW,
it isn't practical to watch the pilot hole, especially when it is on
the back of the motor, and you are driving from the front of the boat.

It doesn't matter, I suppose, what the pilot hole does when you
can't watch it anyway.

Casady

On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:11:11 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 15:46:57 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote:

And, btw, when my little Suzuki is still putting along two years from
now with water only being ejected INTERMITTENTLY through the urination
hole, YOU'LL STILL BE WRONG!!!!!

I feel about the same way about an intermittant pilot hole as I do
about a water temperature gauge that only works part of the time. BTW,
it isn't practical to watch the pilot hole, especially when it is on
the back of the motor, and you are driving from the front of the boat.

It doesn't matter, I suppose, what the pilot hole does when you
can't watch it anyway.

Casady

Steering from the front of the boat? It's a 2.5 hp outboard with a
tiller, Casady.

Happen to possess a boat with a steering wheel and a 3 HP motor.
certain that the water pump is
working at startup, and being able to glance back occasionally and
confirm you haven't clogged with sand, seaweed or a plastic baggie is
pretty important. The pilot hole on all small outboards I've seen
shoots out to the side so you can see it easily from your seat, by
simply turning your head and looking towards the motor.

As for the pilot hole, it is on the back of the 1/2,the 1 the 3 and
the 5 my family has owned. Motors dating from the twenties to the
fifties. I hear some would rebuild the water pump every couple of
years. One next door neighbor has a fifty year old motor, the other
next door forty. Never replaced anything on either of them.
When did Evenrude quit making the half horse motor? Nobody I know paid
any attention to the pilot hole.

Casady

On Thu, 29 May 2008 13:40:20 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 17:20:13 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:11:11 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 15:46:57 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2008 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote:

And, btw, when my little Suzuki is still putting along two years from
now with water only being ejected INTERMITTENTLY through the urination
hole, YOU'LL STILL BE WRONG!!!!!

I feel about the same way about an intermittant pilot hole as I do
about a water temperature gauge that only works part of the time. BTW,
it isn't practical to watch the pilot hole, especially when it is on
the back of the motor, and you are driving from the front of the boat.

It doesn't matter, I suppose, what the pilot hole does when you
can't watch it anyway.

Casady

Steering from the front of the boat? It's a 2.5 hp outboard with a
tiller, Casady.

Happen to possess a boat with a steering wheel and a 3 HP motor.
certain that the water pump is
working at startup, and being able to glance back occasionally and
confirm you haven't clogged with sand, seaweed or a plastic baggie is
pretty important. The pilot hole on all small outboards I've seen
shoots out to the side so you can see it easily from your seat, by
simply turning your head and looking towards the motor.

As for the pilot hole, it is on the back of the 1/2,the 1 the 3 and
the 5 my family has owned. Motors dating from the twenties to the
fifties. I hear some would rebuild the water pump every couple of
years. One next door neighbor has a fifty year old motor, the other
next door forty. Never replaced anything on either of them.
When did Evenrude quit making the half horse motor? Nobody I know paid
any attention to the pilot hole.

Casady

Those motors probably pre-date flexible pump impellers, and may not
have even had (or really needed) a pilot hole at all. The British
Seagull has a metal impeller, too. Some of the small motors you
mention are probably air cooled, anyway. :')

On neightbor has a fifties 35 Johnson, the other a 90 Mercury, The 35
is on a home made plywood boat that has been glassed. The ninty is on
a larger aluminum boat. Skiing, fishing and just riding around are
what we do. The only cruising is one hour or so cocktail cruises.
Rubbernecking at slow speed. I don't remember pilot holes on the half
or the one, but the five it was on the back, and the boat had a
forward wheel. Pilot holes were like Canada, everyone knows it exists,
but nobody gives it much thought.

Casady

On May 29, 5:27*am, wrote:

Okay. You are a troll. I'm not going to waste any more effort on your mindless
nonsense.

Ooooh, classic response. *Someone actually challenges you to back
up your varied and wild pontifications and answer logical questions
and when those questions begin to befuddle you and your stationary
brain, replete with your preset notions about everything, you
immediately start to call people names like dimwit, call what they ask
"mindless nonsense" and tell others what they do are "baloney" and
finally, when all else fails, you utilize the most infantile
accusation of all --- "you're a troll." *lol

If the hat fits...

Not on my head, try yours.

You presented no actual challenge to anything I said. You asked absurd questions that could not be answered with a yes or no because they were so off course.

Most of what you said was simply your monaural and egotistical
viewpoint on outboards and was so weak it was unworthy of a
challenge. And, no question is absurd. The absurd ones are the
people who cannot answer a question and so they attack the question to
hide their own insecurities and personal failure to be able to
intelligently respond. Classic misdirection technique...

Your comment about waiting for the final word from "Wilbur Hubbard" sealed the deal.

I have no idea who Wilbur Hubbard is but have noticed that some of
the NG are always on his case so I simply threw that in as a bit of
sardonic wit.

T-R-O-L-L

Ooooh, so now Mr. Salty is resorting to capital letters, screaming
out his accusation in the hopes that someone, somewhere might believe
his infantile, immature response to rational thought.

And, by the way, I now quote you as saying "I'm not going to waste
any more effort on your mindless nonsense."

Yet you responded again after saying you were all done. Do we now
add "LIAR" to the resume of the egotistical, puffed-up pompous Mr.
Salty?

-Jay
(now realizing there is always one like Salty on every newsgroup but
grateful there are so many others with traits called class, common
decency, intelligence, experience, etc. to answer questions of a
newbie).

On May 29, 6:40*pm, wrote:
plonk

Ooooh, the announced "plonk," ranking right up there in the same
immature, childish category of calling someone a troll. People with
class, Salty at Dog, just filter someone quietly if they continue to
fear what they write while others, of the more playground variety,
yaknow the nyah nyah nyah grade school type like yourself, feel the
self-gratifying need to "announce" their intentions (like anyone
really cares). But I suppose that's pretty tough for someone so full
of himself as you appear to be, but thanks for the plonk, it means I
don't have to read your bullcrap theories anymore and makes room for
the really knowledgable posters in this newsgroup to offer advice to
me that is worthwhile.

-Jay
(still appreciative of the rec.boats.cruising posters with knowledge,
experience and class)