"Richard Casady" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 May 2008 14:33:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:30:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 May 2008 23:50:28 -0400, Wayne.B

wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 17:43:08 -0400, "Gregory Hall"
wrote:

I've run my 20 horse Honda in a 5 gallon pail when no other choice
was
available.


Just curious. Why would you do that? Don't you realize that 4-stroke
outboards store almost indefinitely without needing to be run to keep
the
piston from corroding and seizing to the cylinder? It's because the
cylinder and rings and piston are bathed by pure oil and not some
diluted
mist like in a two-stroke motor. Also, most of the time a single
cylinder
four-stroke engine, due to camshaft configuration, will stop with the
piston
at or near TDC with the valves closed. This effectively seals the
innards
from corrosion causing moisture.

It was a situation onboard my trawler where the Honda had ingested
some bad fuel. I needed to drain the carburetor bowl, clean the fuel
filter screen, and get it running again. It's much easier to do that
kind of work when the engine is not on the dinghy. I had a place to
mount the engine on the back deck and the 5 gallon pail was handy.

I have a Yamaha 9.9 High Thrust outboard on my sailboat. It has the
flush
system
where you connect a garden hose to a fitting and run water through it
without
the engine running. I do that probably every two weeks. I'm located up
a
river,
so just motoring in from outside, the engine is running for a half
mile
in
water
with little salt in it, especially when the tide is going out. Still,
I
periodically lower a 5 gallon bucket full of fresh water and salt-away
on
a rope
and run the engine in that to make sure that saltway does it's thing
everywhere
including the water passages in the head, and the thermostat. The
saltaway
disolves all the salt buildup, and leaves a protective film. I have
never
been
confident that doing it just via the hose is a perfect system.
Thermostats
caked
with salt are trouble. The bucket flush once a month is no big deal
whether it's
really needed or not. Belt AND suspenders for any equipment I rely on.


This misconception about salt build up needs to be ended.

It simply does not happen and it does not happen because salt water
dissolves salt crystals. Hot salt water dissolves salt water crystals
even
faster and it is, indeed, hot salt water that circulates through the
engine.
Anything other than very tiny, almost invisible to the naked eye salt
crystals simply do not occur. And these are dissolved immediately when a
flow of salt water is again established. Flushing an engine with fresh
water
is a placebo for those who can't really think straight. It is a totally
unnecessary practice and will do NOTHING to increase the life of the
engine.

And another thing. Salt water lubricates better than fresh water. It is
easier on the rubber impeller in the water pump. Running in fresh water
and
rinsing in fresh water decreases the life of the impeller. That's a
fact,
Jack!

Wilbur Hubbard


Okay, we now know you have never torn down and rebuilt an outboard
engine.
In
fact, you have never even removed and replaced the thermostat.



I used to make a living repairing motors. What you call salt crystals are
aluminum oxide crystals. Fresh water nor salt water will flush them out.
Muriatic acid will.

Nothing attacks aluminum oxide: saphire or ruby are aluminum oxide..
Not even slightly reactive with muratic acid.
Muratic will dissolve carbonates very nicely. Calcium and magnesium is
what it is, not aluminum.

Casady

I stand corrected. Your explanation is logical. But the point is salt
crystals cannot remain salt crystals when immersed in a flow of hot fresh or
salt water. The so-called salt crystals are not NaCl salts from salt water
like these idiots seem to think they are.

Wilbur Hubbard

Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation
of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following:

1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell-
tales, pilot holes.

2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be
contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system.

3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret,
high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to
the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky
Way galaxy.

4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until
clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in
solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and
laced with a dose of chagrin.

-Jay

"Jay" wrote in message
...
Thsanks to all for a variety of explanations regarding the operation
of my new Suzuki DF2.5 outboard. In summation we know the following:

1--Suzuki calls, what is normally referred to as pee holes and/or tell-
tales, pilot holes.

2--The owner's manual is poorly written and appears to be
contradictory in regards to the operation of the cooling system.

3--We haven't yet found out whether or not Suzuki has some secret,
high-level design wherein their DF2.5 doesn't operate, in regards to
the cooling system, like the other 10 billion outboards in the Milky
Way galaxy.

4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until
clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3. Research in
solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and
laced with a dose of chagrin.

-Jay

What puzzles me about all this is the statement you quoted (IIRC) from the
instruction book saying that under certain conditions water may not be
coming out of the pilot holes when the engine is running, even if all is
well. I have a Yamaha 2.5 4-stroke and the instruction book clearly says
that water must be coming out of the pilot holes at all times when the
engine is running. This is what I would expect. Every motor I have ever used
worked that way.
I believe this is the main point you should take up with your Suzuki dealer.

On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote:
4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until
clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3.

Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing
ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were
to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as
long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine.
It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd.

Research in
solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and
laced with a dose of chagrin.

Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early
for chagrin. Even a small dose.

Rick

On May 19, 8:35*am, wrote:

On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay *wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3.

Wait a sec. *Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd.

Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing
that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the
type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on.
It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that
all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift
out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the
design of the motor and/or both.

Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin.

Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose.
Rick

Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have
scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach
out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And
being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of
chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However,
I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let
you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain.
-Jay

Jay wrote:

On May 19, 8:35 am, wrote:


On Sun, 18 May 08, Jay wrote: 4--Jay is not taking the new Suzuki out on the lake until clarification is ascertained on all of items 1-2-3.


Wait a sec. Let's not over react here. Nobody is saying the pushing ability of your motor is broken or even defective. And even if it were to crap out, you're no worse off than when you had no motor at all as long as you have your trusty oars along. Right now the motor is fine. It's only the monitoring system thats appears a little odd.


Actually, Rick, I'm not really over-reacting; I'm just realizing
that in the entire chain of events here something is amiss and I'm the
type of person who likes ALL the ducks in a row before moving on.
It's not an emotional state, it's a lifestyle. I fully realize that
all is well with the motor in general and the only items left to sift
out in this mystery are the veracity of the owner's manual vs. the
design of the motor and/or both.


Research in solving the apparent contradictions is ongoing, pervasive, focused and laced with a dose of chagrin.


Glad to hear you're looking for an explanation but it's way to early for chagrin. Even a small dose.
Rick


Actually I've chatted with two Suzuki mechanics and both have
scratched their heads regarding the manual and one is going to reach
out to the major shop wizards in the Suzuki USA conglomerate. (And
being unable to figure it out at the local level caused him a bit of
chagrin...I could sense it through ther telephone wires). However,
I'm leaning toward the bogus manual solution but we'll see. I'll let
you know as soon as the word trickles down from the mountain.
-Jay

Personally I'd go for running it at the dock with an electronic
thermometer monitoring the power head (hollow out a little block of
polystyrene so the probe is insulated from the air and tape or wedge the
probe against the cylinder head, with a little dab of thermal transfer
grease (as used for PC CPUs etc.) for good heat conduction, with the
polystyrene over it. Some time spent at varying revs and in and out of
gear and you'll soon know which part of the manual to belive.

Your own observations are likely to be more accurate than a manual that
has suffered in translation . . .

I must note however that unless the cooling water telltale or 'pee hole'
squirts up into the air jetski style, you are very unlikely to notice
a blockage in time. They seem to be more to let you check the impeller
isn't b*****ed beginining of each trip.

There is no simple way of adding an alarm to an engine without an
electrical system at the design stage, One could only design in a
thermal trip that operated the kill switch. Probably there would be
enough false trips to make it a manufacturer's nightmare and a laywers
dream :-(

Perhaps there's a market for a minature watch battery powered alarm
beeper that sticks inside the cowling with a probe that tapes to the
cylinder head.

I've talked to several Suzuki mechanics and to Customer Service at
USA
Suzuki Marine and here are "answers" (i.e. "information") I received.

1--The amount of water squirting out of the pilot (pee) hole is
determined by the rpms of the motor; the faster the motor revs, the
bigger the stream.

2--The idle setting on the motor is 1800 rpm (which seemed quite
peppy
to me) but is needed to be that fast to keep the impeller pumping
water at idle/low speed.


3--At some speeds, there will not be a "stream" of water but only a
"mist" that one can feel by putting one's hand in front of the pilot
"pee" hole.


4--The manual still sucks.


5--There was a recall issued by Suzuki for certain motors within a
serial number range for a defective cooling system. My motor was not
in that group.


And now for what REALLY ****ED ME OFF! I've owned Suzuki motorcycles
and ATVs and have always liked the quality and style of products made
in Japan; however, in looking at the motor plate today I saw the words
MADE IN THAILAND stamped therein. GRRRRRRRRR...even our outsourcees
are now outsourcing. Where will it all end?

-Jay
(Who may be reliving dreams about that 5HP air-cooled Briggs &
Stratton outboard he passed up for $699 although it was probably made
in Bangladesh, Nigeria or high in the mountains of Nepal..lol)

Well... my original question is addressed in #3, At least we know
there IS and indicator at all times of impeller operation. That's
good.
But now I have a new question brought on by #2. I don't think I've
ever tried to put any motor in gear at 1800 rpm. Are the backs of
your boat seats equipped with head rests? Seems like whiplash may be a
problem ;-)
Seriously though, stay in touch. I'm interested to know how it all
works out over time.

Rick ---- still think you did better than the Briggs & Stratton

On Fri, 23 May 08, Jay wrote:
I've talked to several Suzuki mechanics and to Customer Service at
USA
Suzuki Marine and here are "answers" (i.e. "information") I received.

1--The amount of water squirting out of the pilot (pee) hole is
determined by the rpms of the motor; the faster the motor revs, the
bigger the stream.

2--The idle setting on the motor is 1800 rpm (which seemed quite
peppy
to me) but is needed to be that fast to keep the impeller pumping
water at idle/low speed.


3--At some speeds, there will not be a "stream" of water but only a
"mist" that one can feel by putting one's hand in front of the pilot
"pee" hole.


4--The manual still sucks.


5--There was a recall issued by Suzuki for certain motors within a
serial number range for a defective cooling system. My motor was not
in that group.


And now for what REALLY ****ED ME OFF! I've owned Suzuki motorcycles
and ATVs and have always liked the quality and style of products made
in Japan; however, in looking at the motor plate today I saw the words
MADE IN THAILAND stamped therein. GRRRRRRRRR...even our outsourcees
are now outsourcing. Where will it all end?

-Jay
(Who may be reliving dreams about that 5HP air-cooled Briggs &
Stratton outboard he passed up for $699 although it was probably made
in Bangladesh, Nigeria or high in the mountains of Nepal..lol)