Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

Larry wrote in news:Xns9A6EDC3B871B9noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the world
signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly they're in
violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing something about
the environment that's correct and proactive is relatively rare. The
cheapest solution isn't always the best solution.

I've been amazed at seeing R-12 and other banned CFCs on shelves in Central
and South America that have been produced in the US. In my opinion, we
should be going after these companies. There's no excuse for them to still
be manufacturing it.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:57:01 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Larry wrote in news:Xns9A6EDC3B871B9noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the world
signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly they're in
violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing something about
the environment that's correct and proactive is relatively rare. The
cheapest solution isn't always the best solution.

I've been amazed at seeing R-12 and other banned CFCs on shelves in Central
and South America that have been produced in the US. In my opinion, we
should be going after these companies. There's no excuse for them to still
be manufacturing it.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org


I have never looked but I'm sure that R-12 is not manufactured in
Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia or Indonesia where I have seen it used. I
suspect that it is manufactured in one of the developed countries,
because, or course, there is a market for it.



Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the
world signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly
they're in violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing
something about the environment that's correct and proactive is
relatively rare. The cheapest solution isn't always the best
solution.



But, Geoff, the "agreement", itself is a scam, based on false science. The
excuse to cut us off from R-12 was that it was destroying the ozone layer,
which is simply false. The SUN and cosmic rays are destroying the ozone
layer, as they have done for millions and millions of years.

All this nonsense of human gasses destroying the Earth assumes the Earth is
in some kind of sealed bubble, which it is not. For its entire history,
the Earth has been destroyed several times over by awful gasses that came
from without and within, long, long before man evolved (or for 6000 years
if you are a devout Christian). Where did it all go? The ecosystem is NOT
an enclosed bubble and is replenished by massive tons of solar ejecta every
day, the solar wind, as it has all this time, man or no man, propaganda or
no propaganda. Hell, we'd have choked to death from the Industrial
Revolution a hundred years ago if we'd been in a bubble....just from
English factory smoke stacks.

Man gives himself way too much credit for his power over nature. Man can't
seem to grasp how small and insignificant he really is, even with his
machines.

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:54:03 +0000, Larry wrote:

damn you!!!
now I'm going to have to install a _new_ bull**** detector...again...

Larry wrote in
:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the
world signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more.
Clearly they're in violation of the agreement. The fact that the US
is doing something about the environment that's correct and proactive
is relatively rare. The cheapest solution isn't always the best
solution.



But, Geoff, the "agreement", itself is a scam, based on false science.
The excuse to cut us off from R-12 was that it was destroying the
ozone layer, which is simply false. The SUN and cosmic rays are
destroying the ozone layer, as they have done for millions and
millions of years.

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner caused
it. It didn't.

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:08:52 +0000, Larry wrote:

Geoff Schultz wrote in
6:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner caused
it. It didn't.

Treat yourself:
http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c6767.html

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these
facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner
caused
it. It didn't.



Actually, that's not the case... the ozone hole over Antartica was actually
quite a bit smaller in 2007 as compared to 2006, although it's not enough to
be considered a trend.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1003100537.htm


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

R-134A is as cheap, or cheaper, than R-12.


The day it was banned, it was 68c/16 oz can at any WalMart....

12 oz of R-134a is around $9 per tiny can.

And it's "cheaper"??

I don't think so.....

One car was converted, my '83 diesel 300TD wagon.

No fittings exist for the '73 220D, however, so it goes on freezing us to
death with the lower pressured forbidden fruit the rest of the world still
uses.