Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"BrianH" writes:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning.

He didn't admit that 'error', and neither do I. Yes, winds falling off
mountainsides can hit very hard very suddenly - I remember one
occasion sailing along gently on a very nice day with just the jib up
and suddenly being knocked down to mast horizontal by such a wind. I
was caught out on that occasion because I was not paying
attention. But it is literally impossible for such a wind to 'appear
without warning'. To get that sort of effect you need a very violent
movement of a very large amount (at least thousands of tons) of air,
and if you are paying attention you will see it coming. The new air
must be significantly different (usually much colder) than the air it
replaces, so will have different moisture and dust content and hence
different trnsparency, leading to different apparent sky colour and
different visibility, even if you do not see the different colour and
texture of the water surface as it approaches (which, if you are close
inshore, you may not).

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

I don't think he's a liar. I think he's very inexperienced, and would
benefit either from going to sea regularly with someone more
experienced for some time, or, alternatively, stumping up his money
and taking a course.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

I'm not calling you a liar; I'm simply saying that with adequate small
boat handling experience you not only could have, but would have
predicted at least the change in sae state consequent on the wind, even
if you had not predicted the wind itself (which I believe you would
also have).

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

I'm not calling you a liar; I'm simply saying that with adequate small
boat handling experience you not only could have, but would have
predicted at least the change in sae state consequent on the wind, even
if you had not predicted the wind itself (which I believe you would
also have).

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit
he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

Thank you for that.

And my "story" is completely true, I can probably find the exact
date and time it happened.

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel. Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

Forget the idea of forged documents - that was a reprehensible notion,
instead take a course because what you don't know WILL hurt you, and your
family.

Good luck,

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit
he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

Thank you for that.

And my "story" is completely true, I can probably find the exact
date and time it happened.

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel. Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

Forget the idea of forged documents - that was a reprehensible notion,
instead take a course because what you don't know WILL hurt you, and your
family.

Good luck,

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
BrianH wrote:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your
words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to
see
you are admitting your error

Are youu hard of reading?

"there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live by. However they do not appear without warning, ever."

Means what it says, it is a statement about the Adriatic in the area
that I live, Ancona to Giulianova.


Yes, you are right, you made a remark that I wrongly construed to mean the
Adriatic in general, my apology (perhaps that may set a precedent in this
ego-ridden newsgroup).

However, I was perhaps so bemused at the attitude that weather patterns
could only conform to your own observations when I had frequent concrete
experiences that were at variance to what you were so emphatically stating.
Well, I can be equally emphatic; I have indeed experienced strong winds
without warning and not only in the Adriatic and, no, I'm not blind to
prevailing/changing conditions nor am I inexperieced in recognising basic
meteorological signs.

It's a big world out there and it is always dangerous to assume that
everywhere conforms to a parochial view, especially concerning the weather
with its infinite parameters, including unique local topographies.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
BrianH wrote:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your
words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to
see
you are admitting your error

Are youu hard of reading?

"there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live by. However they do not appear without warning, ever."

Means what it says, it is a statement about the Adriatic in the area
that I live, Ancona to Giulianova.


Yes, you are right, you made a remark that I wrongly construed to mean the
Adriatic in general, my apology (perhaps that may set a precedent in this
ego-ridden newsgroup).

However, I was perhaps so bemused at the attitude that weather patterns
could only conform to your own observations when I had frequent concrete
experiences that were at variance to what you were so emphatically stating.
Well, I can be equally emphatic; I have indeed experienced strong winds
without warning and not only in the Adriatic and, no, I'm not blind to
prevailing/changing conditions nor am I inexperieced in recognising basic
meteorological signs.

It's a big world out there and it is always dangerous to assume that
everywhere conforms to a parochial view, especially concerning the weather
with its infinite parameters, including unique local topographies.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:


"Steve" wrote in message
.. .
"BrianH" , wrote:

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to
show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel.

What is foolish about hiring a boat and keeping within the
guidelines set by the hire company?

Because the difficulties you found yourself in showed that those guidelines
were flawed, which you would have seen if you had known more.

Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

No doubt your own perfect record will attest to that.

That is a juvenile comment and irrelevant to the discussion. Of course I do
not have a perfect record, far from it, but I have had no incident worse
than a few groundings in 40 years of skippering my own yacht in the waters
of three continents, usually single handed. Agreed going aground in the
wrong place at the wrong time can escalate into a major incident but I did
have a large measure of luck during all that time. As you did.

My homily about expecting the worse is good advice. Murphy is always with us
and at sea, he brings his brother and the rest of the family as well. If
something can go wrong, it will. And so will something else at the same
time.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:


"Steve" wrote in message
.. .
"BrianH" , wrote:

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to
show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel.

What is foolish about hiring a boat and keeping within the
guidelines set by the hire company?

Because the difficulties you found yourself in showed that those guidelines
were flawed, which you would have seen if you had known more.

Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

No doubt your own perfect record will attest to that.

That is a juvenile comment and irrelevant to the discussion. Of course I do
not have a perfect record, far from it, but I have had no incident worse
than a few groundings in 40 years of skippering my own yacht in the waters
of three continents, usually single handed. Agreed going aground in the
wrong place at the wrong time can escalate into a major incident but I did
have a large measure of luck during all that time. As you did.

My homily about expecting the worse is good advice. Murphy is always with us
and at sea, he brings his brother and the rest of the family as well. If
something can go wrong, it will. And so will something else at the same
time.

BrianH.

Sudden winds: Was Licence etc
 

BrianH wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few
minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it
coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere
moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they
wouldn't be

Getting a bit heated, this discussion, so I've snipped a lot of
threats and hard words!

About sudden winds.

I've lived and sailed Greek waters since 1978, and there's no
doubt that occasionally very big winds arrive without any
warning. No cloud change visible, no visibility change visible,
nothing. But it's rare.

The most common 'big fright' is the passage of a cold front, when
there will be a lot of cloud around, and if you're downwind of an
island giving shelter from the regular wind, you won't see the
roll cloud signalling the approach of the front. Suddenly the
wind shifts from the regular N segment to a southerly segment -
and that southerly wind can hit 50kts at onset then slowly drop
to 30kts. Waves will build from flat to 1metre within 15 minutes,
2 metres after about 30 minutes. By then the wind has usually
passed. Twice I've seen yachts anchored bows to a quay minced to
pieces in such circumstances, once in Levkas town, once in Tolon.

The Adriatic bora (especially in April and May) is the next most
common 'big fright'. 40kts from a consistent blue sky within a
few minutes.

After that you should consider the passing of a big cumulus. In
unstable conditions you can have lots of these, none a big
threat. Then along comes a twister. Oops! They'll flatten any
boat, drag any anchor, but they're gone in a minute and are
rarely accompanied by any swell.

Blue sky 'big frights' from the south in the Aegean are usually p
receded by a build up of a southerly swell in flat water. They're
easily the worst, but don't usually go above 30kts in summer.

There's another, interesting, blue sky fright, but it doesn't
involve a change in wind direction. It affects yachts in the lee
of some islands. When the regular meltemi goes above a certain
strength, the wind seems to accelerate down the mountain side and
suddenly there's no wind shelter. Vassiliki shows this effect
beautifully, and several Aegean islands show the effect to
dangerous levels. Calm to 50 kts offshore in seconds. Yuk.

I don't think any courses will prepare people to predict any of
these situations, though experience will raise suspicions if a
swell picks up without wind to cause it. They're all very
frightening when you first experience them, and judgement tends
to be suspended for a while. As to meeting them from a small open
boat . . .

I'm quite prepared to believe that Steve may have experienced a
weather change that frightened him immensely. I suspect the swell
may have been building up beforehand, but perhaps it's
significance hadn't registered. I think also the swell height was
exaggerated - it just doesn't build up from nothing to more than
2 metres within less than half an hour - unless you've popped
around a sheltering headland by mistake.

So, though this discussion is interesting, I think it's a red
herring concerning licencing.

JimB