On Feb 21, 6:04 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:
... If I follow ............. then no one should post anything here because our
opinion isn't of value.

I don't think you follow or perhaps you're indulging in a bit of
hyperbole. Please keep posting.

... Cruising in the way I think of it, is long trips across open ocean. Coastal
sailing, which is
what I do, is not in the same category. ...

I don't really follow this. If I sail to Vava'u from New Zealand on
my boat and then spend a month or two bobbing around in the anchorages
(many of them just a few tens of yards apart) am I cruising? Is the
person who flies in and charters a boat and bobs around the same
anchorages for the same amount of time not cruising? If I deliver a
boat from New Zealand to Vava'u and then fly back am I cruising? To
me cases one and two are probably cruising and three probably isn't...

Why shouldn't I "dare" to call what Skip is doing Coastal Sailing and what
folks who sail across
the open ocean Cruising? ..

Dare, dare! Seems to me though that the essence of cruising isn't
particularly about a person's or boat's ability to go offshore.
Certainly, there is a distinction between coastal sailing and ocean
passage making, but you can do both without cruising and either can be
cruising...

-- Tom.

wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 6:04 am, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:
... If I follow ............. then no one should post anything here
because our
opinion isn't of value.

I don't think you follow or perhaps you're indulging in a bit of
hyperbole. Please keep posting.

... Cruising in the way I think of it, is long trips across open ocean.
Coastal
sailing, which is
what I do, is not in the same category. ...

I don't really follow this. If I sail to Vava'u from New Zealand on
my boat and then spend a month or two bobbing around in the anchorages
(many of them just a few tens of yards apart) am I cruising? Is the
person who flies in and charters a boat and bobs around the same
anchorages for the same amount of time not cruising? If I deliver a
boat from New Zealand to Vava'u and then fly back am I cruising? To
me cases one and two are probably cruising and three probably isn't...

Why shouldn't I "dare" to call what Skip is doing Coastal Sailing and
what
folks who sail across
the open ocean Cruising? ..

Dare, dare! Seems to me though that the essence of cruising isn't
particularly about a person's or boat's ability to go offshore.
Certainly, there is a distinction between coastal sailing and ocean
passage making, but you can do both without cruising and either can be
cruising...

-- Tom.


Tom ,, let's see if I can make this clear. In the first posting, Skip
talks about a channel [Hawk Channel] he
had to deal with that is according to him very narrow ..

This posting is followed by Wilbur, saying he knows the channel and Wilbur
calls Skip
a liar and writes ..

"Hawk Channel is anything but narrow. You obviously weren't even IN Hawk
Channel if you make such a stupid claim. For everybody's information, Hawk
Channel is anything from three to five miles wide the entire way from Miami
to Key West"

So Skip calls Wilbur a non cruiser and writes "As before, I invite you to
tell us of where you've cruised in the last
- say - year...We're out doing it...".

Like most folks on this newsgroup, I have followed Skip's adventures. His
build, sinking, repair, and then his trip up
the coast, a few medical and mental issues,, and now his trip down the
coast...

My input,, Skip hasn't really gone Cruising yet. He has done some coastal
sailing, but not really gone off, over the
horizon .. and that is what I feel is a true Cruiser.

I don't think Skip can rely on his experience living on his boat and doing
some coastal sailing as an answer to
someone who questions his veracity about a certain channel. My feeling is
until he actually goes off on an open
ocean passage, until he sets out for that island over the horizon, and then
returns, or at the very least accomplishes
some trip that is more than a day sail, then he must answer the question
with facts, his experience in the channel,
etc rather than to say "We're out doing it". For example, if the Pardey's
wrote that the channel was narrow, and someone
posted that it wasn't .. I would side with the Pardey's since they have
years of experience cruising to all kinds of different
anchorages.

In my opinion, Skip needs to show me more in the way of sailing trips before
he gets my "Yup, Skip knows what he is
talking about and Wilbur is a jerk"

I am a coastal sailor. If I wrote that the channel into Portland, Maine was
XXXXX and someone said I was a liar,
I couldn't just say "I've been sailing longer than you so take that"..

I would need to explain. Tell why I though the channel was narrow. Maybe
for me it was. Maybe Skip is
cautious and what he thinks is narrow is a big open ocean to another.

I hope this clears up what I meant.

Now .. maybe Skip will explain the difference between his view of Hawk
Channel from Wilbur's view of the same channel.

"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" wrote:

Tom ,, let's see if I can make this clear. In the first posting, Skip
talks about a channel [Hawk Channel] he
had to deal with that is according to him very narrow ..

This posting is followed by Wilbur, saying he knows the channel and Wilbur
calls Skip
a liar and writes ..

"Hawk Channel is anything but narrow. You obviously weren't even IN Hawk
Channel if you make such a stupid claim. For everybody's information, Hawk
Channel is anything from three to five miles wide the entire way from Miami
to Key West"

So Skip calls Wilbur a non cruiser and writes "As before, I invite you to
tell us of where you've cruised in the last
- say - year...We're out doing it...".

Like most folks on this newsgroup, I have followed Skip's adventures. His
build, sinking, repair, and then his trip up
the coast, a few medical and mental issues,, and now his trip down the
coast...

My input,, Skip hasn't really gone Cruising yet. He has done some coastal
sailing, but not really gone off, over the
horizon .. and that is what I feel is a true Cruiser.

I don't really agree with this and I think it is an artificial
distinction. If we agree then only people who qualify for full
membership in the SSCA (I think it is 1500 miles without stopping of
something of the sort) or delivery skippers who are not in the ICW or
coastal cruising would be cruisers. I don't think being a delivery
skipper qualifies, even though some of them certainly go off over the
horizon. We wouldn't qualify because we do not go offshore for more
than about 36 hours max. Bob says it is because I'm chicken, and I
suppose I am, but maybe that is because I am exercising good judgment
about what is appropriate for us.

You can have your definition - no one can keep you from doing that.
But we don't have to agree.

I said what my definition was - someone who lives on the boat (by
which I mean more than a weekend or even a couple of weeks - whether
or not they have a house) and moves the boat from place to place (no
marina queens)

The thing about coastal sailing is - you really need MORE skill to do
it and not less. Out in the ocean it is mostly a matter of weather,
and watches with nothing much to hit, and in a lot of places, nothing
much to hit you.

I don't think Skip can rely on his experience living on his boat and doing
some coastal sailing as an answer to
someone who questions his veracity about a certain channel. My feeling is
until he actually goes off on an open
ocean passage, until he sets out for that island over the horizon, and then
returns, or at the very least accomplishes
some trip that is more than a day sail, then he must answer the question
with facts, his experience in the channel,
etc rather than to say "We're out doing it".

He has been out for more than a day - that's how he got into trouble
in the first place. And I think it also counts as to whether someone
is heading out there even if they haven't gone yet. Planning and
getting ready is part of it.

For example, if the Pardey's
wrote that the channel was narrow, and someone
posted that it wasn't .. I would side with the Pardey's since they have
years of experience cruising to all kinds of different
anchorages.

The Pardey's have more experience than just about anyone, but it would
be more relevant as to whether they had experience with the particular
location under discussion. If they haven't been there, their
experience has no bearing on the issue and gives them no particular
standing.

Hawk Channel isn't an anchorage. One of the problems for us is that
there aren't any reasonable anchorages for a deeper draft boat (5 feet
or over) where we would naturally need them.

Hawk Channel is the area between the offshore reefs and the various
islands in the Keys. It is about 160 miles long by road. There are
only a few places where one can get to the other side of the Keys, and
between Miami and Marathon there are almost no protected places to
anchor on the ocean side except behind either Rodriguez Key or
Tavernier and those don't usually come at a good time for a day's
sail.

We have staged at Rodriguez for a jump across the Gulf Stream to the
Bahamas, leaving at night. Or rather leaving before dark so that I
can still see where we are going and can go through the gaps in the
reef. It is difficult to anchor there because the holding isn't too
good..

In my opinion, Skip needs to show me more in the way of sailing trips before
he gets my "Yup, Skip knows what he is
talking about and Wilbur is a jerk"

I am a coastal sailor. If I wrote that the channel into Portland, Maine was
XXXXX and someone said I was a liar,
I couldn't just say "I've been sailing longer than you so take that"..

I would need to explain. Tell why I though the channel was narrow. Maybe
for me it was. Maybe Skip is
cautious and what he thinks is narrow is a big open ocean to another.

I hope this clears up what I meant.

Now .. maybe Skip will explain the difference between his view of Hawk
Channel from Wilbur's view of the same channel.

He's already done that.

Rosalie B. wrote:

Hawk Channel isn't an anchorage. One of the problems for us is that
there aren't any reasonable anchorages for a deeper draft boat (5 feet
or over) where we would naturally need them.

Hawk Channel is the area between the offshore reefs and the various
islands in the Keys. It is about 160 miles long by road. There are
only a few places where one can get to the other side of the Keys, and
between Miami and Marathon there are almost no protected places to
anchor on the ocean side except behind either Rodriguez Key or
Tavernier and those don't usually come at a good time for a day's
sail.

I just looked at my logs, and the distance from Marathon to Hurricane
Harbor near Miami is 94 nm.

There are anchorages (like New Found Harbor) farther south on the way
to Key West.

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" wrote:

Tom ,, let's see if I can make this clear. In the first posting, Skip
talks about a channel [Hawk Channel] he
had to deal with that is according to him very narrow ..

This posting is followed by Wilbur, saying he knows the channel and Wilbur
calls Skip
a liar and writes ..

"Hawk Channel is anything but narrow. You obviously weren't even IN Hawk
Channel if you make such a stupid claim. For everybody's information, Hawk
Channel is anything from three to five miles wide the entire way from
Miami
to Key West"

So Skip calls Wilbur a non cruiser and writes "As before, I invite you to
tell us of where you've cruised in the last
- say - year...We're out doing it...".

Like most folks on this newsgroup, I have followed Skip's adventures. His
build, sinking, repair, and then his trip up
the coast, a few medical and mental issues,, and now his trip down the
coast...

My input,, Skip hasn't really gone Cruising yet. He has done some coastal
sailing, but not really gone off, over the
horizon .. and that is what I feel is a true Cruiser.

I don't really agree with this and I think it is an artificial
distinction. If we agree then only people who qualify for full
membership in the SSCA (I think it is 1500 miles without stopping of
something of the sort) or delivery skippers who are not in the ICW or
coastal cruising would be cruisers. I don't think being a delivery
skipper qualifies, even though some of them certainly go off over the
horizon. We wouldn't qualify because we do not go offshore for more
than about 36 hours max. Bob says it is because I'm chicken, and I
suppose I am, but maybe that is because I am exercising good judgment
about what is appropriate for us.

You can have your definition - no one can keep you from doing that.
But we don't have to agree.

I said what my definition was - someone who lives on the boat (by
which I mean more than a weekend or even a couple of weeks - whether
or not they have a house) and moves the boat from place to place (no
marina queens)

The thing about coastal sailing is - you really need MORE skill to do
it and not less. Out in the ocean it is mostly a matter of weather,
and watches with nothing much to hit, and in a lot of places, nothing
much to hit you.

I don't think Skip can rely on his experience living on his boat and doing
some coastal sailing as an answer to
someone who questions his veracity about a certain channel. My feeling is
until he actually goes off on an open
ocean passage, until he sets out for that island over the horizon, and
then
returns, or at the very least accomplishes
some trip that is more than a day sail, then he must answer the question
with facts, his experience in the channel,
etc rather than to say "We're out doing it".

He has been out for more than a day - that's how he got into trouble
in the first place. And I think it also counts as to whether someone
is heading out there even if they haven't gone yet. Planning and
getting ready is part of it.

For example, if the Pardey's
wrote that the channel was narrow, and someone
posted that it wasn't .. I would side with the Pardey's since they have
years of experience cruising to all kinds of different
anchorages.

The Pardey's have more experience than just about anyone, but it would
be more relevant as to whether they had experience with the particular
location under discussion. If they haven't been there, their
experience has no bearing on the issue and gives them no particular
standing.

Hawk Channel isn't an anchorage. One of the problems for us is that
there aren't any reasonable anchorages for a deeper draft boat (5 feet
or over) where we would naturally need them.

Hawk Channel is the area between the offshore reefs and the various
islands in the Keys. It is about 160 miles long by road. There are
only a few places where one can get to the other side of the Keys, and
between Miami and Marathon there are almost no protected places to
anchor on the ocean side except behind either Rodriguez Key or
Tavernier and those don't usually come at a good time for a day's
sail.

We have staged at Rodriguez for a jump across the Gulf Stream to the
Bahamas, leaving at night. Or rather leaving before dark so that I
can still see where we are going and can go through the gaps in the
reef. It is difficult to anchor there because the holding isn't too
good..

In my opinion, Skip needs to show me more in the way of sailing trips
before
he gets my "Yup, Skip knows what he is
talking about and Wilbur is a jerk"

I am a coastal sailor. If I wrote that the channel into Portland, Maine
was
XXXXX and someone said I was a liar,
I couldn't just say "I've been sailing longer than you so take that"..

I would need to explain. Tell why I though the channel was narrow. Maybe
for me it was. Maybe Skip is
cautious and what he thinks is narrow is a big open ocean to another.

I hope this clears up what I meant.

Now .. maybe Skip will explain the difference between his view of Hawk
Channel from Wilbur's view of the same channel.

He's already done that.



I guess we will agree to disagree.

Tally ho..

"Sir Thomas of Cannondale" wrote in message
news:CAevj.20178$eg3.7989@trndny05...

In my opinion, Wibur makes some valid points.. he certainly seems to know
the channel he posted about.

Thank you, sir! Wilbur always knows of which he speaks. Some folks even
consider me prescient. But a lot of that is due to a logical mind that
easily discerns cause and effect. Face it, it hardly takes a genius to
realize that the likes of Joe and Skippy are heading for a fall. One can
tell they are possessed of little or no logic or common sense.


As for Skips "As before, I invite you to tell us of where you've cruised
in the last
- say - year...We're out doing it..."

Like motoring up and down the ICW and going aground every other day is
cruising . . .


Skip is living part time on a boat, to call what he has been doing
"cruising" is a very big stretch.

Exactly correct, my good man!


Since his ill-fated launch, ship wreck, repair, rebuild, depression, ..
blah blah .. about all the cruising he has
done is along the coast, and even this was short hops with long anchor
hanging time in between.

And the fool can't even anchor without dragging most every time the wind
blows or the current changes.


It is February, very cold where I live, snow up the *&^%. If I was
"living" on my boat, "living" the
cruising lifestyle as many do .. I would be in the island, Bahama's,
Cuba.. who knows ... but I would
not be sitting at some "good guy let me use it" dock in FLA. That isn't
cruising, that is houseboat
time.

Perfect for Skippy as he obviously has a houseboat mentality. All the
systems that are constantly breaking down have little to do with sailing
but, rather, with turning a sailboat into a houseboat.


I enjoy Skips postings, in a weird way they are like a bad tv show with a
predictable plot, but I keep
watching anyway. He speaks of his life, health, relatives, etc... very
enjoyable. But .. not in any
way, or stretch of the imagination is what he has been doing ... CRUISING.


Right on, brother!


Wilbur Hubbard

On Feb 21, 12:35 pm, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:
... In my opinion, Skip needs to show me more in the way of sailing trips before
he gets my "Yup, Skip knows what he is
talking about and Wilbur is a jerk"

I am a coastal sailor. If I wrote that the channel into Portland, Maine was
XXXXX and someone said I was a liar,
I couldn't just say "I've been sailing longer than you so take that"..

I would need to explain. Tell why I though the channel was narrow. Maybe
for me it was. Maybe Skip is
cautious and what he thinks is narrow is a big open ocean to another.

I hope this clears up what I meant. ...

Cool. I don't have any first hand knowledge of the area, but I just
took a quick look at a chart and the official channel is less than
half a mile wide off Sea Grape Point and there are enough obstructions
that a not too weatherly or nimble boat with a 2 meter draft and an
inexpert crew might find it awkward to beat through the shoals. As
you say "narrow" depends on the context.

But, your definition of "cruiser" still doesn't smell right to me. I
make a distinction between expertise and action. A duffer beach
camping in a canoe yawl is cruising in my book even if he manages to
drown himself in cup of water. I've met some shockingly inept folks
out in the Pacific and I've made more than my share of bone headed
moves myself but we're still cruisers. I have to take a deep breath
and count down slowly from a pretty big number to keep from screaming
when I hear that Skip is getting a USCG license, but he's cruising.

-- Tom.

wrote in message
...
I have to take a deep breath
and count down slowly from a pretty big number to keep from screaming
when I hear that Skip is getting a USCG license, but he's cruising.

-- Tom.


Skippy is obviously lying about his hours if he is serious about going for a
USCG license. Last time I looked he's gonna need a couple hundred hours
offshore and we all know he's got nowheres near that. Probably lacks the
hours nearshore and inshore as well. But I've demonstrated with facts that's
he's lied about several things so far so I wouldn't put it past him to
falsify his documented time at the helm in order to cheat his way into a
license that he's totally unqualified for . . .

But, the Coast Guard has issued a license to at least one admitted illegal
drug abuser so I guess they have lax standards when it comes to handing out
licenses to those who don't qualify or will be a danger to other boaters.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:59:14 GMT, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:

He speaks of his life, health, relatives, etc... very
enjoyable. But .. not in any
way, or stretch of the imagination is what he has been doing ... CRUISING.

I beg to differ: Your life, health and relatives do not go away just
because you are spending a lot of time on a boat and traveling around.
He's doing a lot more cruising than most people on this group, and
seems to be enjoying the challenges and telling us about it. Nothing
wrong with that, and a careful read can be educational.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:04:54 GMT, "Sir Thomas of Cannondale"
wrote:

Cruising in the way I think of it, is long trips across open ocean.

That is more correctly called "passage making", and *very* few people
actually do it to any great extent. I claim no special expertise but
find coastal cruising more interesting for the most part.