Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES, those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

Richard

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob
writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES,
those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the
electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering
how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

Richard


I saw one out in the Pacific that was mounted on an outboard rudder. The
wind vane was a simple V shape on top of the rod leading to the trim tab.
The vane was mounted on a collar that could be adjusted for the wind.
Actually I think he loosened the set screw and let it weather cock and the
reached back and tightened it up. Very simple and he had used it from Samoa
to Japan, on a home built 36'r.

Leanne

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:13:20 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES, those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

Richard

Had a friend who had this arrangement on a Bristol Channel Cutter,
worked fine.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:remove underscores
from address for reply)

In cavelamb himself writes:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES, those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

There are several systems and it was very common before they came up
with the servo pendulum. If you have read Peter Förthmanns books, then
you should have noticed him explaining such things on pages 46-47 and
there are pictures of two on page 46.

I think you should take Peter's book seriously, he knows what he is
talking about. I studied this topic about 5 years before I decided on
the system and now my vife says: Why did you not buy this earlier.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:13:20 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:

I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

What about a small tiller pilot with a small wind vane sensor?

Lauri,
What boat do you have and what sort of sailing do you do?
Yes I have read the book. I am deciding between Aries, Monitor, Sailomat
and Windpilot.

Regards,
Dennis Gibbons
S/V Dark Lady
CN35-207
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In cavelamb himself
writes:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob
writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what
you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES,
those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the
electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering
how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

There are several systems and it was very common before they came up
with the servo pendulum. If you have read Peter Förthmanns books, then
you should have noticed him explaining such things on pages 46-47 and
there are pictures of two on page 46.

I think you should take Peter's book seriously, he knows what he is
talking about. I studied this topic about 5 years before I decided on
the system and now my vife says: Why did you not buy this earlier.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In "Dennis Gibbons" writes:

Lauri,
What boat do you have and what sort of sailing do you do?
Yes I have read the book. I am deciding between Aries, Monitor, Sailomat
and Windpilot.

I have a 40-foot sloop, I am cruising with my vife in the Baltic,
visiting in the summer Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Lithuania,
Latvia and Estonia.

I made some studies in the same field and Windpilot won hands down. I
have installed and sailed with Aries on a friends boat, it is heavy and
clumsy, more trouble to install, and the dimensions of the components do
not match the loadings applied on them. Monitor is a stainles steel copy
of Aries. Sailomat is too complicated, they did not get it right. Read
the book again, Förthman knows what he is talking about.

The auxiliary rudder systems are a nuisance when you try to reverse and
manouver in harbours, Aries and Monitor are vulnerable in close
quarters, Windpilot is superior in all aspects to these.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Regards,
Dennis Gibbons
S/V Dark Lady
CN35-207
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In cavelamb himself
writes:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

In . com Bob
writes:


On Nov 12, 8:04 am, "Roger Long" wrote:

Bob,

The tone of your reply makes a lot more sense to me when I read what
you
just posted and realize that you are tilting at windmills.

I think, but maybe I'm wrong, that the OP was talking about windVANES,
those
wonderful devices that steer the boat without using any of the
electrical
power that would be produced by a windMILL.

I have no experience with the latter aside from occasionally wondering
how
people put up with the noise when I get close to one.

--
Roger Long




Hey Roger !


Duhhh, a second read I find myself embarrassed by my critical and
shallow understanding of the post.
You are right ! Ah, wind vanes............ got one, an Aries. Works
great but always a bit nervous when stuffing the stern into a tight
slip. Lots of money hanging off the stern to get bent out of shape.


Thanks for the correction Roger. But I still draw the line at wind
mills on a boat.


Bob


If you had a Windpilot, you did not have this problem. :-).

- Lauri Tarkkonen



I've read the book, looked at the setup Roger has on Strider and
just can't go there (my boat is just way too small).

I went out and sailed today and thought about all this.

In the scale I would need I was wondering if anybody had seen a
trim tab on the rudder that was operated by a vane?

Or is that completely nuts?

There are several systems and it was very common before they came up
with the servo pendulum. If you have read Peter Förthmanns books, then
you should have noticed him explaining such things on pages 46-47 and
there are pictures of two on page 46.

I think you should take Peter's book seriously, he knows what he is
talking about. I studied this topic about 5 years before I decided on
the system and now my vife says: Why did you not buy this earlier.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In "Roger Long" writes:

You should take a look at the Cap Horn. Although primarily designed for the
very neat, integrated installation, they are also available for outboard
mounting with outboard rudders in which form the installation is no more
difficult than the other models. Their mechanism is dead simple and very
reliable. They were new on the scene when the book was written so they
don't get much coverage aside from some comments that they don't have some
adjustments that other vanes do. Not a big issue in my experience.

I love mine.

--
Roger Long

The idea is neat, but the geometry of the 2:1 gear gives you better
steering and better damping. This is a bit complicated to explain, but
because it is in the books so I do not bother to do it here.

To my taste it is too complicated. There was a professor in general
mechanics and engineering who started every lecture by telling: Simple
macines are reliable. This has been forgotten. I gave Cap Horn a very
serious look and thought in the Düsseldorf boat fair, but it really did
not have anyting to compensate for the complications of installation.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In "Roger Long" writes:

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote:

There are two different issues here that I think you are mixing up.
Complexity of mechanism and complexity of installation.

Yes, the Cap Horn is complicated to install if you do it as intended but the
result is a simpler boat, cleaner appearance, and simplicity in maintenance
and operation. You can buy an outboard model and have the simple
installation.

The mechanism of the Cap Horn is elegantly simple. That's one of the things
that attracted me to it as a designer of boats and nautical things. They
have certainly proven themselves.

The installation won't be as big a deal on all boats as it was on mine. My
lazzarett was just a couple inches too big to reach the critical spots so I
had to work inside. I also could have done it in a much easier fashion but
I wanted to get the braces up and out of the way. I would rather have done
that stuff for a few days in the winter and spring than have lived with a
drum on my wheel and lines running all around the cockpit for the rest of my
sailing days.

It might be different for voyaging where you set up the self steering and
then don't go to that part of the boat for days on end. The Cape Horn makes
self steering practical in coastal waters. The ability to disconnect it in
two seconds is great. Whether I am using it or not, there is no visible
sign of it inside the cockpit coaming other than the wheel turning magically
back and forth.

Obviously you do not know Windpilot. You have the gear bolted on with
four bolts, and you can remove for winter removing two bolts, and about
the appearance in the cockpit, only two strings coming to the tiller. You
can release the tiller in a second by just pulling the chain of the
slot. If you do not use it, it is turned up and in my case it does not
go over the transom when turned up.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote:

Ah, a tiller. Yes, a tiller installation would close the complexity
gap
considerably but I have a wheel.

Take a look at the Fleming servo unit.

316L investment cast parts, common bearings with popular winches, no
control lines req'd, provides emergency rudder as std.

Add a push-pull stick type auto pilot and your home free.

Free that is, except in your wallet.

Lew