On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:06:00 -0000, otnmbrd
wrote:

Larry wrote in news:Xns99ADAD78CF807noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:



Celestial Navigation, while quite romantic and "salty", are no longer
necessary for worldwide navigation.

Larry

No longer necessary, true, but for a long distance sailor the ability to
use it can/could come in handy for many reasons.
Hell, we could say that the Mark 1 eyeball or soundings are no longer
necessary, but we still use them and find good reasons to do so.


You know it's kind of funny. Everyone talks about using an archaic
method of determining position and never mention using either a lead
line to determine depth or a chip log to determine speed.

How come all the advocates of a relative low tech method of
determining a position never mention that the system is unusable for
navigation in tight spaces, narrow channels, etc. and dead reckoning
or taking sights or measuring depth will be necessary.

I never hear anyone recommend having a lead line on board in case your
electronic depth sounder fails or a chip log mounted on the stern
pulpit in case your electronic speed log fails.

I am not saying that one shouldn't learn celestial navigation or not
carry extra life jackets but it is no longer a necessary skill.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote:

You know it's kind of funny. Everyone talks about using an archaic
method of determining position and never mention using either a lead
line to determine depth or a chip log to determine speed.

I carry a lead line, and use it on occasion, usually when moored in very
tight quarters. I also have a knot log, but that's a display item at
home. However, for many years I estimated speed by tossing a piece of
paper overboard and timing its travel alongside. In a few minutes
anyone can make a "chip log table" calibrated for their boat.

The difference is that anyone can tie a wrench on a rope and they have a
lead line. No special equipment or training is needed, just a bit of
common sense.


How come all the advocates of a relative low tech method of
determining a position never mention that the system is unusable for
navigation in tight spaces, narrow channels, etc. and dead reckoning
or taking sights or measuring depth will be necessary.

A sextant can be helpful for coastal navigation, but celestial clearly
has its limitations. And I will admit that my new chartplotter allowed
me to go places in the Maine fog this summer that I never would have in
the past.

The more interesting question would be how many boats practice basic
plotting such as running fixes? How many turn off their GPS for a day
and run down the coast with bearings? How many use the depth sounder
for part of their fix? These are the skills that should be learned.



I never hear anyone recommend having a lead line on board in case your
electronic depth sounder fails

I've mentioned it several times. But its so obvious, I didn't think it
needed daily comment.

or a chip log mounted on the stern
pulpit in case your electronic speed log fails.

My speed log is so unreliable I never expect it to run!


I am not saying that one shouldn't learn celestial navigation or not
carry extra life jackets but it is no longer a necessary skill.

Its surprising how many of the old timers actually didn't know
celestial. Before radio an accurate clock was needed for longitude, and
that was beyond the budget of a lot of ships. For all the talk of the
lunar methods, very few mariners actually used it.

FWIW, I have five sextants, but have not carried one on board in six
years. If I did a long ocean crossing, however, I would carry one just
for the practice.

"jeff" wrote in message
...
wrote:


I carry a lead line, and use it on occasion, usually when
moored in very
tight quarters.

when anchoring in shallow water, I use my boat hook to check
the bottom.

SBV

"Scotty" wrote in message
. ..

"jeff" wrote in message
...
wrote:


I carry a lead line, and use it on occasion, usually when
moored in very
tight quarters.

when anchoring in shallow water, I use my boat hook to check
the bottom.

SBV


Either you carry a very long boat hook... or your definition of shallow is
different from most sailors.

Don White wrote:

I carry a lead line, and use it on occasion, usually when
moored in very
tight quarters.
when anchoring in shallow water, I use my boat hook to check
the bottom.

SBV


Either you carry a very long boat hook... or your definition of shallow is
different from most sailors.


I used my boat hook several times summer - since my boat only draws 3
feet and the hook extends to over 8 feet, I don't see where the problem
would be. There have been times in the Keys when I stood on the bottom
to see if we'd have enough at low.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:55:25 -0400, jeff wrote:

Don White wrote:

I carry a lead line, and use it on occasion, usually when
moored in very
tight quarters.
when anchoring in shallow water, I use my boat hook to check
the bottom.

SBV


Either you carry a very long boat hook... or your definition of shallow is
different from most sailors.


I used my boat hook several times summer - since my boat only draws 3
feet and the hook extends to over 8 feet, I don't see where the problem
would be. There have been times in the Keys when I stood on the bottom
to see if we'd have enough at low.


Well, if you have six foot tides you might have a problem :-)


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote:

I used my boat hook several times summer - since my boat only draws 3
feet and the hook extends to over 8 feet, I don't see where the problem
would be. There have been times in the Keys when I stood on the bottom
to see if we'd have enough at low.


Well, if you have six foot tides you might have a problem :-)


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Here's the spot where I used the boat hook (Misery Island, Salem Bay, MA):

http://www.sv-loki.com/IMGP1025.jpg

The tides there are about 10 feet. The spot where we're at in the
picture has about 4 feet under the keel at low, but the previous night
we were on the red mooring on the far right and early in the morning I
determined that we were headed for a deficit of an inch or two (because
of an extreme low), so we moved over.

In the Keys, of course, the tides are generally two feet or less.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

when anchoring in shallow water, I use my boat hook to
check
the bottom.

SBV


Either you carry a very long boat hook... or your
definition of shallow is
different from most sailors.


Shallow = 4-6 feet. I draw 3'4''.

12' long boat hook, I have a mark on it at 4'.

SBV

jeff wrote in news:Y-
:

ts surprising how many of the old timers actually didn't know
celestial.

Wouldn't the time be better spent learning how to USE that new navigation
program running on the laptop than screwing around with your astrolabe?

Most sailors I know have no idea how to use the nav program running on
their boat....beyond using it for a chart that plots itself and the
simplest of map programs.

Sure is neat to see all those AIS targets now placed on the chart plotters
on Lionheart...(c; That electronics guy has everything working great, now!

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:06:00 -0000, otnmbrd
wrote:

Larry wrote in news:Xns99ADAD78CF807noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:


Celestial Navigation, while quite romantic and "salty", are no longer
necessary for worldwide navigation.

Larry
No longer necessary, true, but for a long distance sailor the ability to
use it can/could come in handy for many reasons.
Hell, we could say that the Mark 1 eyeball or soundings are no longer
necessary, but we still use them and find good reasons to do so.


You know it's kind of funny. Everyone talks about using an archaic
method of determining position and never mention using either a lead
line to determine depth or a chip log to determine speed.

How come all the advocates of a relative low tech method of
determining a position never mention that the system is unusable for
navigation in tight spaces, narrow channels, etc. and dead reckoning
or taking sights or measuring depth will be necessary.

I never hear anyone recommend having a lead line on board in case your
electronic depth sounder fails or a chip log mounted on the stern
pulpit in case your electronic speed log fails.

I am not saying that one shouldn't learn celestial navigation or not
carry extra life jackets but it is no longer a necessary skill.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)
Does anyone doubt that Columbus or Slocum would have passed on using a
GPS had it been available?
G