On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court.
In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor
boat rules.

Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of
gear to charge batteries and running a generator.

Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a
sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that
is the law, then the law is an ass".

What say resident counselor Dave?

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 19:32:11 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court.
In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor
boat rules.

Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of
gear to charge batteries and running a generator.

Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a
sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that
is the law, then the law is an ass".

What say resident counselor Dave?

Actually the USCG rules refer to

(1) A power vessel under way, defined as: The term 'power-driven
vessel' means any vessel propelled by machinery;

(2) A sailing vessel under way

and finally

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical
shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is
not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld]

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote:

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote:

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.


Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from
determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your
engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote:

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.


Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from
determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your
engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




It's not often that I can hear another sailboat's motor running from any
distance. If the sails are sheeted in hard and they're going dead into the
wind, or if they only have the main up in light winds (again, sheeted in
hard), it is fairly obvious they're steaming. Nobody, but nobody, in any of
the places I have sailed, uses the steaming dayshape. I did for a while
until I got tired of being the only one using it and nobody knowing what it
was for. Likewise with using sound signals. Overtaking boats in the channel,
I will sometimes sound the requisite two short blasts signaling my intention
to pass to their port side. Being inland rules, I'm not "allowed" to proceed
until they respond. But they think I'm just honking at them and get all bent
out of shape and return the flying bird salute.

Sailing or not, under power or not, I tend to apply the General Prudential
Rule and assume that everyone on the water intends to run me over.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote:

So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail
boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding
under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear
to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply
running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not
connected to the propellers.

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.


Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from
determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your
engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem.

It's not often that I can hear another sailboat's motor running from any
distance. If the sails are sheeted in hard and they're going dead into the
wind, or if they only have the main up in light winds (again, sheeted in
hard), it is fairly obvious they're steaming. Nobody, but nobody, in any
of the places I have sailed, uses the steaming dayshape. I did for a while
until I got tired of being the only one using it and nobody knowing what
it was for. Likewise with using sound signals. Overtaking boats in the
channel, I will sometimes sound the requisite two short blasts signaling
my intention to pass to their port side. Being inland rules, I'm not
"allowed" to proceed until they respond. But they think I'm just honking
at them and get all bent out of shape and return the flying bird salute.

You're not required to use the day shape unless you're on 12 meters or over.

I've only seen it once on the bay.

I wouldn't say it's always obvious, but it's not about hearing as much as
seeing the raw water coming out and wondering. Sometimes people do motorsail
with their sails full when they're in get-there mode (not that I think it
helps much, but they do).

Sound signals are more common here, especially when the fog sets in, but
also among the larger powerboats. We use the sound signals in our teaching,
but generally not in the marina areas because we don't want to annoy our
neighbors... I know, not exactly following the rules, but the horn is
available if we can't see or be seen. Every time I've used the sound signal
to pass, the other boat has not responded with a sound, but I did get one
guy wave me through like a traffic cop, which was fairly humorous.

Sailing or not, under power or not, I tend to apply the General Prudential
Rule and assume that everyone on the water intends to run me over.

Me too. :-)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:06:43 -0700, in message

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Sometimes people do motorsail
with their sails full when they're in get-there mode (not that I think it
helps much, but they do).

I find that wind in the sails that would give me about 4 knots and a
low engine throttle setting that would give me about 4 knots can
combine to give me over 6. I can't get to 6 under engine alone without
just gobbling down the fuel and making a lot of noise. So it's faster,
more pleasant, cheaper, and more environmentally friendly than just
proceeding under power when time is a factor.

OTOH, I like it much better when time isn't a factor and I can just
ghost along contentedly at 3 or 4 knots.

Ryk

"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

In other words, any time I see a sailboat and I suspect an engine is
running, I can treat it as a powerboat? That's convenient!

Clearly such a simplistic view does not really cover the situation.

The point that the lawyer was probably trying to make is that if there
were an accident, a sailboat would have a very weak defense if it turned
out it could have avoided the accident simply by putting the engine in
gear. In fact, there are situations where a sailboat is obligated to
start an engine.

The rules work because vessels behave in a manner consistent with how
they appear. This is why special lights and shapes are generally used
when there is a possibility of mis-interpretation. Thus, a sailboat
should be treated as a sailboat unless it a clearly being propelled by
machinery. Similarly, the sailboat is entitled to act like a sailboat
since it knows it is sailing, and that is the way it looks. It is only
if a situation arises where the engine could "save the day" would it be
required.

By your lawyer's logic, any sailboat with an electric motor is by
definition a powerboat, because it only the flip of a switch away from
being powered. And therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that all
sailboats are so powered.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Wayne.B" wrote

That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has
been modified by some court precedent.

Don't bet the farm on it.

As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the
prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is
running.

Clutch position is not relevant.

Lew




I don't think anyone being careful would bet the farm on it. But, I could
easily see having an engine running but not engaged while under sail.
Assumptions like yours are good from the perspective of taking fewer
chances. I wouldn't want to argue either way in court.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com