On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob

"Bob" wrote
no vessel has the right of way through another vessel!

That's the whole COLREGS. The rest is commentary. (I am, in fact, standing
on one foot.)

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning
rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob



If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat is
your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would mean
when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It would mean
when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean when your boat
was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was on a tractor
trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean when your boat
was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your boat because the
rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied up
at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try to
obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......




"Wilbur Hubbard" wilbu
anews.com:


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also
misunderstands this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless they're
dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or sailing.

Good luck in your effort to educate Skippy. I doubt it takes, though.

Wilbur Hubbard

"otnmbrd" wrote
Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"

.... then stand on your head and spell "rhinoceros" ...

Unless there are unambiguous definitions of "proper look-out" and "all
available means" and "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances" somewhere
in there, any competent attorney should be able to convince any reasonable
judge that these is more guidelines than actual rules.

* Ernest Scribbler wrote, On 8/12/2007 6:10 AM:
"otnmbrd" wrote
Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"

... then stand on your head and spell "rhinoceros" ...

Unless there are unambiguous definitions of "proper look-out" and "all
available means" and "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances" somewhere
in there, any competent attorney should be able to convince any reasonable
judge that these is more guidelines than actual rules.


Actually, there are such definitions. Read a book such as Farwells
and you'll start to understand. And remember, Admiralty Courts are
not the same as the normal courts you see on TV. Actually, at some
levels in the US they are the same, but most of the time they follow
the established precedents.

Here's a link to an appeal court's ruling that I found interesting
because it is a rare case where a boat was found 100% at fault, rather
than shared blame. The sailboat, Coyote, is the vessel Mike Plant
disappeared from when the keel fell off. His fiancée inherited the
boat and chartered it to Dave Scully, who bumped it into a fishing
boat on a qualifying run. Scully was found 100% at fault, for
not having a lookout or proper lights.

http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html

What it boils down to is that if you hit something you didn't see, its
your fault. And when you start out by saying you do a scan every 15
minutes, that would be essentially admitting you didn't see something.

One curious thing is that many minor cases are really decided by
insurance companies. They will divide blame as they see fit, which
will affect the owners as far as the deductible payment. A friend was
in a simple port/starboard collision. They were on starboard, but
admitted they didn't see the other boat until it was too late. This
implied they didn't keep a proper lookout and thus were judged 24%
responsible by the insurance companies. The other boat had to pay 76%
of their deductible, they paid 24% of the other's. I assume they
figured that 48% of the issue was lookout, 52% was port/starboard.

If you want to consider something vague in the rules, think about the
way "Safe Speed" is defined, and how that applies to high speed
vessels in the fog.

"Jeff" wrote
http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html
What it boils down to is that if you hit something you didn't see, its
your fault.

Especially if you do a hit and run while asleep at the wheel at 4:30 AM
without running lights.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point. Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
. 3.70...

Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
the n
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......

The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times. No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention. So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up and get caught. The rules are
there to make it easier not to screw up. If you have an accident, the
trick is not to put your foot in your mouth right away.

I think an anchored boat displaying the appropriate lights and/or day
shapes is probably not required to keep a lookout. Most of the cases
I've heard of where the anchored boat was assigned some of the blame
has been when they did not have appropriate anchor lights.

There are also required anchor watches of course, but I don't think
these come in the same category.

Now I do not think that - even offshore where Skip was (and I have
been there) that every 15 minutes is an appropriate amount of time to
keep watch. In our case, we don't do offshore more than 36 hours
(and we only do that much if something holds us up somewhere) because
I know that Bob won't sleep off watch and so I refuse to go. We can
just about manage that length of time, because I WILL sleep even if he
won't. He keeps threatening to go without me, but so far hasn't.

There was a local case here where a couple who had done several
circumnavigations were coming home to sell their boat and move back
ashore. They were in the Chesapeake sailing at night. (First
mistake). The man was on watch, and he saw something on the radar
that he didn't understand. He went below for some reason - to get
coffee or look at a chart - accounts differ. (Second mistake). The
boat ran between a tug and tow. Sank in less than 10 minutes and they
got into the dinghy in just what they were wearing. They were rescued
right away - the Calvert Co (which was their nearest shore) rescue
people picked them up VERY quickly considering that this was about 2
am and very dark - in less than 1/2 hour IIRC. But they lost
everything they owned.

Skip was going from Charleston to Beaufort. We've done the same
except we went in the Cape Fear River. If I were doing it today, I
would follow the route he did except I'd go in to Morehead City
because I have a feeling that the NC ICW has shoaled in a lot of
places. Beaufort and Charleston (and Cape Fear and Masonboro) are all
good inlets, and I've even gone out Little River. It's a good sail,
and there's not a LOT of traffic out there - not like off the coast of
FL from Miami to Ft. Pierce, where you have little unlighted fishing
boats and gambling boats and freighters etc.

The confusion factor (not understanding what you see) is the primary
problem. Initially, I thought that the star rising in the east was a
boat. (blush). And it also took me a long to figure out that the
lights that were rising from the shore were not a plane (and they
weren't stars because they were west of me) but were flares.

And whoever said that you had to learn to read the radar was right.
Bob works on that constantly.

On Aug 12, 2:06 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times.

Espeically when they dont know the responibilities of Lookout, dont
know the rules, and dont care to find out.


No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention.

No it is to prevnet crashes and dead bodies floating in the water.

So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up....

Granny, what can I say............ you said it yourself for all to
see. Im not going to commen on your statment.

Bob