* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.

Jeff wrote in
:

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy
was drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth
of July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a
power boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4
by George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the
case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.



Well, then maybe they should sit down and read the owner's manual. What
do you expect? a warning sticker plastered on every part of the boat? No
matter how hard you try to think of how people can screw up people can
always screw up worse than you think they can. If you had a warning that
said don't get drunk and operate this boat, don't put more than six
people in it, and so forth you'd just get ignored. If you don't count
the little kids you end up with eight adults. That's still two too many.

Would you blame an airplane that crashed because it said it was for four
passengers and they crammed eight people in it? Nope. That would be
pilot error. So don't blame the Mac. If you built a boat that was idiot
proof it'd be a square room with rubber walls firmly stuck to the
ground.

--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.freewebs.com/egordon873/index.htm

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 7:06 PM:
Jeff wrote in
....
My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.



Well, then maybe they should sit down and read the owner's manual. What
do you expect? a warning sticker plastered on every part of the boat? No
matter how hard you try to think of how people can screw up people can
always screw up worse than you think they can. If you had a warning that
said don't get drunk and operate this boat, don't put more than six
people in it, and so forth you'd just get ignored. If you don't count
the little kids you end up with eight adults. That's still two too many.

You miss the important issue here. There are very few other boats
that would have capsized in this situation. If this had been a keel
boat, or if the ballast tank were filled, or if it didn't have a 50hp
engine, there would not have been a problem.



Would you blame an airplane that crashed because it said it was for four
passengers and they crammed eight people in it?

The people were not "crammed" onto the Mac. I'm sure that they felt
there was plenty of room. A Rhodes 19 would be "crammed," but not a
16 footer.

Nope. That would be
pilot error. So don't blame the Mac. If you built a boat that was idiot
proof it'd be a square room with rubber walls firmly stuck to the
ground.

Sorry. I prefer boats that do not suddenly roll over when there is no
wind or waves.

In article ,
says...
* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/10/2007 11:49 AM:

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Sure we can blame the Mac. Half the boaters out there were probably
drunk and yet only one capsized. And he didn't just capsize it, it
rolled within seconds of leaving the anchorage because he goosed the
throttle by mistake.

While there were 11 people on board, 3 were small children and down
below, so the boat was not grossly overloaded by the standards of
ordinary boats.

My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.

Absolutely - so really the instructions should be *always* operate the
boat with the ballast in place (when on the water).

--
Duncan

* Duncan McC (NZ) wrote, On 6/10/2007 10:02 PM:
My issue with this situation is that the boat is marketed to novices,
yet requires extra attention to issues that are found on very few
other boats.

Absolutely - so really the instructions should be *always* operate the
boat with the ballast in place (when on the water).


Here is the decal from the 26M. I don't know if the 26X had the same
warning, but IIRC the boat that rolled didn't have a decal.

http://www.macgregor26.com/safety/sa...l_apr_2006.pdf

The M version was redesigned to include several hundred pounds of
ballast plus foam in the mast which means that it should be
self-righting in most situations. In the X version, they say that if
the boat heels 50 degrees without water ballast it will quite possibly
capsize and not self-right.

Here is the full list of safety recommendations/warnings on the site:

http://www.macgregor26.com/safety/safety.htm

Some of the warnings would apply to any boat, but many are unique for
a 26 foot sailboat sold as a "cruiser." In particular, without the
water ballast crew size is limited to 4 people/640 pounds. Having
sailed many years in daysailers 15-19 feet, the concept of a 26 foot
cruising boat with a cabin that is unsafe with 5 people on board is
quite unexpected.

"Ed Gordon" wrote in

The guy was dumb and drunk when he bought the Mac!!!

that's no excuse.

In article , egordon873
@aol.com says...
Duncan McC (NZ) wrote in
. nz:

In article ,
egordon873 @aol.com says...
http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p11.htm

Myth#11 Mac26 is not for ocean sailing. Go ahead, click the link and
see just how good and seaworthy a professional captain thinks the Mac
really is. Dare you. Jeff expecially.

Wow gee whiz.

I didn't read all the guff - what a god awful website.

I did find this though...

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


You can't blame the boat for that terrible tragedy. It said the guy was
drunk and it said this too: "The boat that capsized on the Fourth of
July and killed two children was overloaded and was being used
incorrectly, according to the boat's manufacturer."

"The 26-foot MacGregor, which is a cross between a sailboat and a power
boat, is designed to hold up to six people, according to Roger
MacGregor, the boat company's owner. The boat carried 11 people the
night of July 4."

"The boat's hybrid design uses a water tank on the bottom to provide
stability. The tank should be filled when there are more than four
people on board, MacGregor said. The tank on the boat driven July 4 by
George Dean Martin was empty, according to the prosecutor in the case."

The guy was dumb and drunk. Don't blame the Mac!!!

Agreed it was the skipper's fault - however, *when* do you have the
water ballast in?

Or better... when do you operate with no water ballast in?

IMO, that's a curly question - and best answered (unlike the info
online) - "all the time the boat is in the water".

It just isn't safe otherwise.

snip

Overall I think the Mac retains it's - it's neither this, and it's
neither that - label, sorry.

It's what you make of it. If you want it to be a saiboat it's a pretty
fast and safe sailboat. If you want a motorboat it's a pretty fast and
safe motor boat. It's the best of both worlds. Everybody who doesn't
know anything complains about the rudders. They say they are too lightly
built. They are too dumb to remember they are slender because they also
are a power boat rudders that have to be able to go throught the water
way faster than a heavy keelboat rudder has to. They are tuffer than you
think since they hold up going twenty or more mph. The rigging is light
so it's easier to put the mast up and down. It's a trailerable boat
remember. You can't make the mast and wiring too big or it'll be too
heavy to put it up. It's designed to be light and strong and is plenty
strong for the sails you get with it.

I would disagree and say it's not a very fast sailboat, and not a very
fast motorboat (people don't *really* waterski behind them do they!!!)

So it doesn't fit into either world.

I think the rigging on say an F7.5 or a Noelex 25 is about right - I
think the Mac is too light (but admit I've read of few rigging
failures).

I certainly have no problem at all steppping my mast, even by myself
(bit tricky, but I can do it - it's not the weight that's the problem,
it's hanging onto the lines and holding the mast up that's the tricky
bit)).

I'd guess the standing rigging is 4mm SS...

http://hitime.no-ip.info

What is the Macs?

I also thought (and it could just be the particular setup) that the
rigging on the Mac I went out on was set *way* too light - I have the
F75 set to a sorta dull piano twang tension (at a guess, twice as taut
as the Mac I went out on).

--
Duncan

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:01:24 +1200, Duncan McC (NZ)
wrote:

I think the rigging on say an F7.5 or a Noelex 25 is about right - I
think the Mac is too light (but admit I've read of few rigging
failures).

We have a bunch of them around here in SW FL. When I see them
underway they are almost always under power in protected water. The
ability to sail seems to be primarily an illusion and marketing
gimmick. Once you get out into open water here with the wind blowing
20+, we sometimes get beat up a bit even on a 49 ft, 50,000 lb
trawler. Going out in the Gulf Stream on a windy day in a lightly
ballasted 26 footer of any type would be comparable to volunteering
for the submarine service.

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:01:24 +1200, Duncan McC (NZ)
wrote:

I think the rigging on say an F7.5 or a Noelex 25 is about right - I
think the Mac is too light (but admit I've read of few rigging
failures).

We have a bunch of them around here in SW FL. When I see them
underway they are almost always under power in protected water. The
ability to sail seems to be primarily an illusion and marketing
gimmick. Once you get out into open water here with the wind blowing
20+, we sometimes get beat up a bit even on a 49 ft, 50,000 lb
trawler. Going out in the Gulf Stream on a windy day in a lightly
ballasted 26 footer of any type would be comparable to volunteering
for the submarine service.



Now, that's a pretty dumb statement!!! Maybe if you spent some time out of
"protected water" you might see some Macs in "unprotected" water. Macs sail
pretty well. Go to the sail calculator and compare a Mac 26X to a Hunter 26
water ballast. The Mac is better in most of the graphs. Compare it to some
heavy keel boats and it makes them look slow and heavy like they are.

http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.freewebs.com/egordon873/index.htm

Duncan McC (NZ) wrote in
. nz:

Agreed it was the skipper's fault - however, *when* do you have the
water ballast in?

Or better... when do you operate with no water ballast in?


You launch the boat. Then you fill the ballast tank. You pull the boat
back onto the trailer and out and then you drain the tank. You just need
to remember those two simple things.



IMO, that's a curly question - and best answered (unlike the info
online) - "all the time the boat is in the water".

Exactly right!!!



I would disagree and say it's not a very fast sailboat, and not a very
fast motorboat (people don't *really* waterski behind them do they!!!)

I'd say it's a bit on the slow side for water skiing but knee boarding
and tubing it's plenty fast.


What is the Macs?

It looks like 1/8 inch to me. I don't think it's metric being made in
California.

You can't make the rigging too tight on a Mac because the roof supports
the mast and there isn't a post under it. You could bend the roof if you
tried to make the mast too tight.


--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.freewebs.com/egordon873/index.htm