Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not spend
buying and maintaining a boat.


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
The average idiot buys a boat for say 100K and finances it for ten years.
He fits it out and keeps it in a slip. The fitting out costs 20K, the
slip costs 5K per year, the insurance costs 1K a year. Haulout for bottom
paint 1K a year. Fuel 1/2K a year.

After ten years the idiot has spent 250K paying back the loan, 20K
fitting out, 50K slip fee, 10K insurance, 10K haulout, 5K fuel, oil,
filters, etc.

345K invested in a 100K boat that perhaps can be sold in ten years for
75K. Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your
boat a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard


It's probably all relative...
That so called "average idiot" is probably hauling in well over 6 figures
a year.
Is it any worse that a washed up retiree pulling in 20K per year on a Post
Office pension and spending $5K per year on an ugly yellow boat with
purple interior?
Both are probably spending the same percentage of their discretionary
income on boating.

wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not
spend buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would
give a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in the
last ten years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be
worth 540K in ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire. So
you trade millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

In "Wilbur Hubbard" writes:


wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not
spend buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would
give a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in the
last ten years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be
worth 540K in ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire. So
you trade millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

I do not know what gives you the right to call someone with different
preferences than you an idiot.

Long time ago, I bought a small sailing boat, for some amount of money,
my brother in law a financial wizard said: I would not but my money in
boats, I get much better return in buing some stock from the market.
I asked him: How can you sail with the stock? He told me, of course you
do not sail with the stock, but after you sell them I have more money
than you when you sell the boat. I was sailing the boat, enjoying the
sea and the archipelago, even could take him on a ride, that he enjoyed
a lot. Say, whatever you please, I might be stupid to invest the money
in a boat, it does not only give me some days or weeks at the seas, it
gives me dreams in the winter about future sailing trips and nice
memories for the previous ones. Of course you might say that your dreams
about getting more money to be invested in some more stock or gold are
better dreams than mine or your fond memories of keeping the money in
your hand or looking at the balance of your check account might be more
beautifull than mine memories of the perfect sunset in the archipelago.

You may keep your dreams of the $$$$$$, but for many sailors the dollars
have any value only if they can be used to buy the memories of a perfect
sailing trip. So you might feel you are a better human being as you have
more dollars than me, but I was able to provide the brother in law an
unforgettable experience in my sailing boat, that he could not do for
me, as I did not get more kicks of looking at his bank statement than I
wold get bu looking of my own.

You may still call us idiots, but we are happy idiots, but I know many
people thinking your way, and they are unhappy, as they are afraid that
the value of their stock will just evaporate, but I know that my fond
memories will be there for ever. When I die, I have at least had the
experience and my children might come to **** on my grave for spending
my money in a sailing boat and not leaving them piles of $$$$$. By the
way, they are not sailors, but they have told that they give much value
of the days they have spent on sea with me in my boat, and they do not
need any money from me.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In "Wilbur Hubbard"
writes:


wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not
spend buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would
give a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in the
last ten years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be
worth 540K in ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire. So
you trade millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

I do not know what gives you the right to call someone with different
preferences than you an idiot.

Relax, Lauri. You have to know Capt. Neal to understand his tirades.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In "Wilbur Hubbard"
writes:


wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your
boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not
spend buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far
as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would
give a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in
the
last ten years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be
worth 540K in ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire.
So
you trade millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

I do not know what gives you the right to call someone with different
preferences than you an idiot.

Relax, Lauri. You have to know Capt. Neal to understand his tirades.

Max

Tirade? Since when is fact tirade? Since when has a valid point backed
up with figures about how people waste their money on boats become
trolling? Is this not a discussion group about boats? Is not discussing
if and how boats are a terrible waste of money not a valid discussion
point? From the looks of this group it seems to me such a discussion is
totally appropriate.

When people call it trolling, off topic, a tirade, perhaps it's because
they are jealous when they see a thread getting lots of traffic and they
feel badly because they aren't astute enough to initiate such a
discussion. "That's not fair, I'm not gonna play anymore," they whine.

Wilbur Hubbard

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 3/22/2007 5:32 PM:
....

Tirade? Since when is fact tirade? Since when has a valid point backed
up with figures about how people waste their money on boats become
trolling?

As usual, it was backed up by made up numbers. Let's look a bit more
carefully:

The average idiot buys a boat for say 100K

hardly, but let's leave that fro the moment

and finances it for ten years.

Financing a boat only makes sense if you have a job that easily covers
it, most prefer to pay cash. However, if you were to finance a $100K
boat, you would probably need 20% down, so you're financing $80K, with
a current rate of 6.37% (Essex Finance Boat Loan). For 10 years,
that's $903 /month, for a total of $108K. So the cost of the boat,
plus outfitting is $40K down, and $108K spread over 10 years.

He fits it out and keeps it in a slip. The fitting out
costs 20K, the slip costs 5K per year, the insurance
costs 1K a year. Haulout for bottom paint 1K a year.
Fuel 1/2K a year.

These numbers are rather high and would represent "top end"
accommodations. However, there are numerous costs not included so I
won't quibble.

After ten years the idiot has spent 250K paying back
the loan, 20K fitting out,

your sloppy math has you off by roughly a factor of 2 here - total
cost was $148K ...

50K slip fee, 10K insurance, 10K haulout, 5K fuel, oil, filters,

we'll give you th $75K of annual fees

345K invested in a 100K boat that perhaps can be sold
in ten years for 75K. Net loss of 270K.

Nope, it was $40K invested, plus $108K in payments, plus $75K in
expenses, for a total of $223. The sale price of $75 seems low,
but that would mean a "loss" of $148K.

You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat a dozen or
so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Nope, it was only $14.8K a year, you're off by a factor of 2. Of
course, 2800 was finance charge, by keeping the boat on a mooring you
could save at least $3000 a year. Further, the "average" boater
doesn't buy an expensive new boat. Very few people have a boat worth
more than $50K. So it would be easy to keep the total cost at under
$10K per year. Clearly a lot of money, but everyone knows that boat
ownership is a form of mental illness.

Is this not a discussion group about boats?

I agree its a reasonable topic of discussion, but basing it on bogus
numbers is counterproductive.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 3/22/2007 5:32 PM:
...

Tirade? Since when is fact tirade? Since when has a valid point
backed up with figures about how people waste their money on boats
become trolling?

As usual, it was backed up by made up numbers. Let's look a bit more
carefully:

The average idiot buys a boat for say 100K

hardly, but let's leave that fro the moment

and finances it for ten years.

Financing a boat only makes sense if you have a job that easily covers
it, most prefer to pay cash. However, if you were to finance a $100K
boat, you would probably need 20% down, so you're financing $80K, with
a current rate of 6.37% (Essex Finance Boat Loan). For 10 years,
that's $903 /month, for a total of $108K. So the cost of the boat,
plus outfitting is $40K down, and $108K spread over 10 years.

He fits it out and keeps it in a slip. The fitting out
costs 20K, the slip costs 5K per year, the insurance
costs 1K a year. Haulout for bottom paint 1K a year.
Fuel 1/2K a year.

These numbers are rather high and would represent "top end"
accommodations. However, there are numerous costs not included so I
won't quibble.

After ten years the idiot has spent 250K paying back
the loan, 20K fitting out,

your sloppy math has you off by roughly a factor of 2 here - total
cost was $148K ...

50K slip fee, 10K insurance, 10K haulout, 5K fuel, oil, filters,

we'll give you th $75K of annual fees

345K invested in a 100K boat that perhaps can be sold
in ten years for 75K. Net loss of 270K.

Nope, it was $40K invested, plus $108K in payments, plus $75K in
expenses, for a total of $223. The sale price of $75 seems low,
but that would mean a "loss" of $148K.

You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat a dozen or
so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Nope, it was only $14.8K a year, you're off by a factor of 2. Of
course, 2800 was finance charge, by keeping the boat on a mooring you
could save at least $3000 a year. Further, the "average" boater
doesn't buy an expensive new boat. Very few people have a boat worth
more than $50K. So it would be easy to keep the total cost at under
$10K per year. Clearly a lot of money, but everyone knows that boat
ownership is a form of mental illness.

Is this not a discussion group about boats?

I agree its a reasonable topic of discussion, but basing it on bogus
numbers is counterproductive.


So, let's split the difference then. You purposely went low and I
purposely went high. Let's compromise and call it 2OK a year. That's
still ridiculous. And it depends a lot on where you slip your boat. Some
places in some of the more expensive parts of the country rent slips for
a forty foot boat, for example, for well over a grand a month. Your
finance interest rates are too low. etc. So you should be willing to
compromise and split the difference too if you're reasonable.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In "Wilbur Hubbard"
writes:


wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your
boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not
spend buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far
as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would
give a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in the
last ten years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be
worth 540K in ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire.
So
you trade millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

I do not know what gives you the right to call someone with different
preferences than you an idiot.

Long time ago, I bought a small sailing boat, for some amount of
money,
my brother in law a financial wizard said: I would not but my money in
boats, I get much better return in buing some stock from the market.
I asked him: How can you sail with the stock? He told me, of course
you
do not sail with the stock, but after you sell them I have more money
than you when you sell the boat. I was sailing the boat, enjoying the
sea and the archipelago, even could take him on a ride, that he
enjoyed
a lot. Say, whatever you please, I might be stupid to invest the money
in a boat, it does not only give me some days or weeks at the seas, it
gives me dreams in the winter about future sailing trips and nice
memories for the previous ones. Of course you might say that your
dreams
about getting more money to be invested in some more stock or gold are
better dreams than mine or your fond memories of keeping the money in
your hand or looking at the balance of your check account might be
more
beautifull than mine memories of the perfect sunset in the
archipelago.

You may keep your dreams of the $$$$$$, but for many sailors the
dollars
have any value only if they can be used to buy the memories of a
perfect
sailing trip. So you might feel you are a better human being as you
have
more dollars than me, but I was able to provide the brother in law an
unforgettable experience in my sailing boat, that he could not do for
me, as I did not get more kicks of looking at his bank statement than
I
wold get bu looking of my own.

You may still call us idiots, but we are happy idiots, but I know many
people thinking your way, and they are unhappy, as they are afraid
that
the value of their stock will just evaporate, but I know that my fond
memories will be there for ever. When I die, I have at least had the
experience and my children might come to **** on my grave for spending
my money in a sailing boat and not leaving them piles of $$$$$. By the
way, they are not sailors, but they have told that they give much
value
of the days they have spent on sea with me in my boat, and they do not
need any money from me.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Your entire post is a screed on the virtues of selfishness when it comes
to financial matters. I think any real man would be happy to leave an
inheritance to his children provided his children were worthy of it,
that is. Real men make enough money so they have plenty for their own
pleasure with plenty to pass on to their offspring. It's the right way
to do things.

But, everybody is missing the point which point is not that you should
not buy a boat but that you should not FINANCE a boat. Save your pennies
and buy a boat outright that you feel you can afford. Put it on a
mooring and save the dock fees. Be responsible and self-insure. You will
fine yourself enjoying your boat even more when you realize you have
been responsible about it.

Earn your money first; spend it second. You will find it is oh so much
easier to spend wisely when you earned your money first because they you
will know the value of a dollar the better.

Wilbur Hubbard

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 3/22/2007 5:45 PM:

Your entire post is a screed on the virtues of selfishness when it comes
to financial matters. I think any real man would be happy to leave an
inheritance to his children provided his children were worthy of it,
that is. Real men make enough money so they have plenty for their own
pleasure with plenty to pass on to their offspring. It's the right way
to do things.

I suppose it would be nice to "pass something on" but other than a
start on an education and perhaps a little help setting up a
household, I'm not sure I see the imperative. Values are much more
important to pass on, they will serve you offspring better in the long
run.


But, everybody is missing the point which point is not that you should
not buy a boat but that you should not FINANCE a boat.

I don't think that was lost everyone.

Save your pennies
and buy a boat outright that you feel you can afford. Put it on a
mooring and save the dock fees.

That depends - will being on a mooring reduce your opportunity to use
it?

Be responsible and self-insure.

That's not being responsible if you don't have liability insurance.

You will
fine yourself enjoying your boat even more when you realize you have
been responsible about it.

Earn your money first; spend it second. You will find it is oh so much
easier to spend wisely when you earned your money first because they you
will know the value of a dollar the better.

Well now, if you had to borrow $100k to buy the boat, you wouldn't have
$100k of that $270k to invest day one , would you? And all of those savings
would not be on day one, would they ? They would average out being on year
5. If we are going to analyze, let's get it right.
Not to say boats are not expensive, but if you use it enough (or not), enjoy
it enough, it may well be worth it. "You can't take it with you."
Why do you post a message such as this HERE ? You might try
rec.beancounters, and expound on all the stupid boaters you have been
listening to.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Net loss of 270K. You pay 27 thousand dollars a year to use your boat
a dozen or so weekends a year. Stupid, just plain stupid!

Think about it.

Wilbur Hubbard

Now Wilbur do the math if the idiot did not purchased a boat.
Show with concrete evidence what happened to the 270K that what not spend
buying and maintaining a boat.


If that sum wasn't spent on something else stupid and useless as far as
investment is concerned it could be invested in something that would give
a reasonable return. Things like land, stocks, bonds, gold(in the last ten
years), If you get a 10% return per anum your 270K will be worth 540K in
ten years. In twenty years it makes you a millionaire. So you trade
millionaire status for the privilege of owning a 100K boat?

That's totally insane. . .

Wilbur Hubbard