Two meter troll wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Two meter troll" wrote in ooglegroups.com...

Lying ahull?
Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up.
It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better
technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to
maneauver.

The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without
releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the
wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for
lunch, etc.

Here's a long explanation of the various techniques...

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284

--
"j" ganz

"heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is
basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair.

Thanks

No sea anchor required to heave to!

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 16, 10:48 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Two meter troll" wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

Lying ahull?

Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail
up.
It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A
better
technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability
to
maneauver.

The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without
releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or
the
wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for
lunch, etc.

Here's a long explanation of the various techniques...

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284

--
"j" ganz

"heaving to" is a sea anchor and storm sail and "lying ahull" is
basicly adrift and depending on your boat running fair.

Thanks



Nope... read it again. Heaving to is using your sails and rudder... nothing
to do with a sea anchor.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:48:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
roups.com...
Lying ahull?

Lying ahull is a very old technique for weathering a storm with no sail up.
It's not used much any more, since it doesn't give you any control. A better
technique is heaving to, which leaves sail up and gives you some ability to
maneauver.

The basic technique for heaving to, is to tack from close hauled without
releasing the jib, then ease the main, and lash the tiller to leward or the
wheel to windward. This calms the boat down, and can be used to stop for
lunch, etc.

Here's a long explanation of the various techniques...

http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=1284

Good article. Some of this sounds all too familiar:

==============================================
Heaving-to
Heavy weather sailing

by George Day
Blue Water Sailing

Heavy weather wears on the boat, tears on the sails and gradually
takes a mighty toll on the crew. Exhaustion, from lack of sleep, from
worry and from the persistent roar of waves and wind, can be blamed
for more problems at sea than any other single cause. When you're too
tired to sail on, when the crew is feeling battered and sick, when the
boat seems to be overpowered, you will know it is time to stop for a
while and heave to.
===============================================

Almost prophetic in fact...

....
the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed
big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8
knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf
of mexico and it did 17.

My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes
good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days.
Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port
will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even
for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your
"Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising
cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet.

-- Tom.

wrote in message
oups.com...
...
the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed
big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8
knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf
of mexico and it did 17.

My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes
good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days.
Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port
will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even
for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your
"Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising
cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet.

-- Tom.




We've always calculated 5 kts. Seems to be pretty accurate.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...
...
the speed of a sail boat is not all that slow.. i might have sailed
big boats but i can tell you a crab boat aint fast. the Renigade did 8
knots and the Tempest did 11, the fastest was a streamer in the gulf
of mexico and it did 17.

My feeling is that the "average" cruising sail boat typically makes
good about 4 knots port to port on passages of more than three days.
Of course the variance is high but making good 8 knots port to port
will require a fast boat and hard work and 11 knots is very fast even
for racing boats. I'd guess that the passage times for your
"Renigade" would be equivalent to a well sailed, fast 40 foot cruising
cat or performance cruising mono of about 50 feet.

-- Tom.

We've always calculated 5 kts. Seems to be pretty accurate.

5 knots is about what we motor at

If a power boat person is used to a 20 foot catamaran with twin 350
engines (like one of my SILs), then both 8 knots and 5 knots is going
to seem really really slow. But if the power boat person is more of a
trawler-type person who is used to 8 knots, then 5 knots might not
seem to be so much slower. On paper at least.

The difference is the length of the days required to get from point A
to point B. If you are used to thinking 8 knots, then it will take
you 6 hours to do 48 nm. At 5 knots it will take more than 9 hours.
In the winter and/or at high latitudes it may make a big difference in
planning your landfalls.

On 16 Mar 2007 13:06:23 -0700, "
wrote:

8 knots port to port
will require a fast boat and hard work

8 knots is about average for a fully crewed 50 ft racing sloop being
pushed hard around the clock.

Been there, done that.

That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I really
meant
heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the mark since
Royce
defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has saved my butt
many times.
My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the main sail is
reefed
and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is that the
boat will
actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1 knot.
This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off due to the
backed jib.
I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a
boat sinking because of semantics.

Sherwin D.

sherwindu wrote:

I would say the biggest difference comes with heavy weather conditions. You
have
to be more aware of changing conditions to do things like get your sail area
reduced
if the wind picks up. For extreme conditions, I would learn about measures to
keep
your boat safe, like lying ahull. You have to be more aware of the depths you
will
go over, since most sailboats have deep keels. Learning how to keep from going
aground and what to do if you are, can be important. Navigation with currents
becomes more important, since your speed is much less than a power boat and you
are exposed to drifts for longer periods. Those are mostly safety issues. Of
course,
you will have to learn more about sail trim, reefing sails, etc. to complete the
picture.
Just don't become one of those sailors I see motoring with a favorable wind with
all
their sails down.

Sherwin D.

Two meter troll wrote:

Ok ive spent my life so far driving around the seas in a boat
independant of the wind. Not only that but way way north of places
sane folks take sail boats in the modern era.
I am Ok at navigations, pretty good at marlin spike seamanship, but
the last time i used a sail was on a homemade pram in Bristlebay AK.
just playing around 15 years ago.

Being an old sailor means i figured out that to make it to codger, i
need to ask some questions and learn from other folks experiances.

how do you transition from power boat to sail?
what habits do i need to unlearn?
what safety habits differ from power to sail?
what am I likely to over look when plotting a course for sail as
opposed to power?
Where are the folks i need to talk to about raising kids on boats?
ports of call and boat yards in the pacific where you can get good
work done cheap?
side band channels to monitor for info and tips?
quick guides to what not to do in various ports?
where to avoid and why?
groups to sail with?
income at sea?
And whole bunches more.
I have the mother of all maritime links, and news groups, etc.
And currently i have time due to a crushed leg.
Thanks in advance.
2MT

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
That's what I get for sending out messages in the middle of the night. I
really
meant
heaving to, instead of lying ahull. However, I was not that far off the
mark since
Royce
defines ahull as heaving to under bare poles with helm alee. It has
saved my butt
many times.
My conception is setting a storm jib to back on the windward side, the
main sail is
reefed
and set to leeward, and the rudder is turned to leeward. My experience is
that the
boat will
actually make some forward headway at a very slow pace, in my case about 1
knot.
This causes the boat to alternately head up into the wind and fall off
due to the
backed jib.
I hope I got my semantics right this time, although I never heard of a
boat sinking because of semantics.



We knew that. g

There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

"j" ganz


There's a lot of controversy about lying ahull. It's not recommended these
days.

"j" ganz



Back in 1987, the drogue report pretty well deep sixed Lyingahull with
wave height or = to your beam. The models in the wave tank kept
rolling over and sinking.

http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/

Humm, so you have 10-13' seas, Pretty common day in most places, now
what? Better have a boat over 40' if your going to do that lying
thing. As far as heavy weather tactics goes there is a bunch of them.
And everybody claims that some doodad or strategy will save your ass.
No one thing will work.

Think of it this way. If you're in law enforcement or corrections its
the same as your "use of force" model. Instead of using progressively
lethal force to control a subject, your using a progressive series of
sailing strategies to maintain control of your boat. But I've never
read anyplace that really described it that way; Too bad. I can see
why people get confused about how to manage a boat in ever increasing
Beaufort states. Do this, don't do that, get a doodad, no get a series
doodad. And then there is always that summarizing paragraph that says,
"but all boats react differently... bla...bla...bla... so you just have to
figure it out yourself." That is a bunch of bull **** from people who
don't know what they are doing. Keeping your boat afloat is as simple
as A-B-C-D.

$.02

And for the 3rd or 4th time I'll post the comments from a master on
one of the rescue boats who saved several in the Fastnet 1979. A quote
that rarely gets reprinted in those "Perfect Storm" books.


Fastnet Disaster
of
1979

Interview with Bill Burrows, Chief Engineer Royal Navy Lifeboat
Institution. Retrieved three disabled sailboats in a 21 hour rescue
during the fatal 1979 Fastnet Storm.

"... Look, you get 300 Yachats in poor weather and you're going to have
some trouble, almost certainly. But the majority of the trouble was
hysteria created by the situation and by inexperienced crews. And that
it was. They were blaming rudders and such, but none of those rudders
would have snapped if they had put drogues out and storm jibs and run
before the weather. They were under bare poles, most of them, and they
were getting up on the seas. And the seas were about 45 feet. Not what
we around here call big.

They got up on these seas and they were running. When the boats were
starting to broach, what the helmsmen were doing was hauling on the
rudders to stop them from broaching. They were putting too much bloody
strain on the rudders, and they had to go.

Yes, I know they were racing sailors, not cruising men, but that's no
excuse. We went out that night and we passed a little old hooker sort
of thing with a family of kids aboard and they were going away to
Ireland with no trouble at all...."