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#1
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Lavac heads vs. others
To Peggie and the head heads:
I am intrigued by the vacuum method of Lavac heads: they seem simple and efficient compared to the frankly sub-par (pun intended) majority of marine heads I've seen. Peggie, I know you vend and prefer Raritan, so feel free to make a case. I've never seen Raritan in Toronto, but I assume I can buy anything I want here. Most people are day and weekend sailors: most people use the low-end Jabsco, etc. brands. Myself, I have a Bryson from the '80s with parts salvaged from another Bryson. (Yes, that was unpleasant). I am planning for next season a complete overhaul of my heads installation and I am interested in Lavacs. The price is higher, but the logic seems sound, and frankly, I value well-built and reliable over cheap and cheerful. I have a 30 gallon holding tank (probably the only piece I'll keep) and it's the Great Lakes, so there's no overboard discharge. Access to pumpouts is usually not an issue. This boat will likely never see salt (why start now?) but will see extensive Great Lakes cruising. I have heard that Lavacs use too much water and are only appropriate for "weekending". Why? Lots of British distance cruisers use Lavacs with no complaint, or so I hear. If not Lavac, then, why, and what are good alternatives. The only heads firm I have heard nothing but praise for is W-C, and if I have to go that way, I will. Twice the price and half the frustration seems like a good trade to me, and most consumer-level heads (I will stay manual only for simplicity's sake) seem like cheap pieces of you-know-what. Feel free to blast away. I want the benefit of experience beyond wanting for Practical Sailor to revisit the topic. R. |
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#2
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Lavac heads vs. others
OK, I've had a Lavac for 4 years now and have completely mixed feelings about. On my
previous boat I had a nice W-C model which I was surprised to find out is well regarded! Someday I'll find the perfect head. One problem with the Lavac is that its not for amateurs. A guest will not know what to do with it. It seems so easy - close the lid and push the button (we have an electric). But the lid tends to stay locked by the vacuum for a long time (this depends on the geometry of the intake hose - ours is a long run) and no one but me can open it. If you have a different guest each weekend this might not be the best for you. The head unit itself has no moving parts so it is virtually indestructible. The pump is a pretty standard Henderson Mark 5 so you can get spares pretty easy. We use the electric pump, but I also carry two manual pumps for fast swap outs - I can strip down and replace the pump in about 20 minutes. The claim is that the Henderson can pass just about anything, but we found that the "instant dissolve" toilet paper is necessary, and the vacuum system is not, as is sometimes claimed, a replacement for a macerator. ( A bad case of constipation may require manual maceration!) This season it clogged 4 times in 8 days, until I discovered I had installed a "manual" flapper instead of the "electric" version. The extra few grams of the electric version helps it seal better. BTW, the manual pump was OK for short trips, but when we moved on board I broke down and got the electric. Expensive, but cheaper than physical therapy for "pumper's elbow." It comes with a timer, but I also wired a manual switch so you can run it 5 seconds. As for water usage, I've always heard it uses less than most, not more. I don't know what others take, but our alleged 35 gallon (US) tank fills in 6 days with 3 people on board. So, you may be wondering if I still like it? Yes, I think its better than most, and for all the little hassles its been easier to maintain than a normal head. However, the next boat I setup I might go for a Vacuflush! -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." wrote in message ... To Peggie and the head heads: I am intrigued by the vacuum method of Lavac heads: they seem simple and efficient compared to the frankly sub-par (pun intended) majority of marine heads I've seen. Peggie, I know you vend and prefer Raritan, so feel free to make a case. I've never seen Raritan in Toronto, but I assume I can buy anything I want here. Most people are day and weekend sailors: most people use the low-end Jabsco, etc. brands. Myself, I have a Bryson from the '80s with parts salvaged from another Bryson. (Yes, that was unpleasant). I am planning for next season a complete overhaul of my heads installation and I am interested in Lavacs. The price is higher, but the logic seems sound, and frankly, I value well-built and reliable over cheap and cheerful. I have a 30 gallon holding tank (probably the only piece I'll keep) and it's the Great Lakes, so there's no overboard discharge. Access to pumpouts is usually not an issue. This boat will likely never see salt (why start now?) but will see extensive Great Lakes cruising. I have heard that Lavacs use too much water and are only appropriate for "weekending". Why? Lots of British distance cruisers use Lavacs with no complaint, or so I hear. If not Lavac, then, why, and what are good alternatives. The only heads firm I have heard nothing but praise for is W-C, and if I have to go that way, I will. Twice the price and half the frustration seems like a good trade to me, and most consumer-level heads (I will stay manual only for simplicity's sake) seem like cheap pieces of you-know-what. Feel free to blast away. I want the benefit of experience beyond wanting for Practical Sailor to revisit the topic. R. |
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#4
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Lavac heads vs. others
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:25:35 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote: Blake, whose "Baby Blake" compact toilet is one of the best in the world--arguably better than the W-C Skipper...both built to have lifespans measured in centuries if maintained--and with price tags to match...about $1000. Very true,,,,, Owners of Baby Blakes (mostly) swear by them except if they need to buy bits when they/we swear at them. I'm just fitting a new inlet pump body,the old one was split by frost, my fault, lack of proper lay up. The last inch or so of the pump stays full of water and an inch of frozen water splits bronze. The new one cost £130+. Have you seen the GOLD PLATED version? £2000 plus. For that sort of money I'd expect the man from Blakes to come and use it for me. Like the Queen, it's well known she never uses the toilet. She has people to do that sort of thing for her.  Ian Wright, Patience, Vertue 203 |
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#5
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Lavac heads vs. others
Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.
Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing - yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with Groco K's. More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4 of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in your arm and face. It's sewage water. On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:34 -0400, wrote: To Peggie and the head heads: I am intrigued by the vacuum method of Lavac heads: they seem simple and efficient compared to the frankly sub-par (pun intended) majority of marine heads I've seen. Peggie, I know you vend and prefer Raritan, so feel free to make a case. I've never seen Raritan in Toronto, but I assume I can buy anything I want here. Most people are day and weekend sailors: most people use the low-end Jabsco, etc. brands. Myself, I have a Bryson from the '80s with parts salvaged from another Bryson. (Yes, that was unpleasant). I am planning for next season a complete overhaul of my heads installation and I am interested in Lavacs. The price is higher, but the logic seems sound, and frankly, I value well-built and reliable over cheap and cheerful. I have a 30 gallon holding tank (probably the only piece I'll keep) and it's the Great Lakes, so there's no overboard discharge. Access to pumpouts is usually not an issue. This boat will likely never see salt (why start now?) but will see extensive Great Lakes cruising. I have heard that Lavacs use too much water and are only appropriate for "weekending". Why? Lots of British distance cruisers use Lavacs with no complaint, or so I hear. If not Lavac, then, why, and what are good alternatives. The only heads firm I have heard nothing but praise for is W-C, and if I have to go that way, I will. Twice the price and half the frustration seems like a good trade to me, and most consumer-level heads (I will stay manual only for simplicity's sake) seem like cheap pieces of you-know-what. Feel free to blast away. I want the benefit of experience beyond wanting for Practical Sailor to revisit the topic. R. |
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#6
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Lavac heads vs. others
"yes" wrote in message
... Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments. Do you have any personal experiance? Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. They make a normal size and a compact. It is true that you can't use a "Home Depot" seat with it. The seals ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody even cleans the sea. The seats aren't painted. The seals are non-marking white rubber and I've never seen a mark. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing - yuck. They don't get badly slimed unless the pump flapper is jammed. The same thing can happen on any head, often worse. The underside of the seat should be wiped down every few days, depending on the use. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. Don't kneel on them. They do flex with the vacuum, but mine hasen't broken in four years, and a friend has one that must be 15 years old. They cost $100, and should probably be considered an appropriate spare if you're leaving the realm of FedEx. Seals are a must. Also pump spares, but the Henderson parts can be easily had. A friend with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with Groco K's. As I've said, they are not for transients. |
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#7
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Lavac heads vs. others
Now we're getting some real facts on the table - we need more?
Yes, I've lots of personal experience - with those of others. It is true you don't get a "house bowl" sized seat like you can in real heads or home toilets. It's also true that after a while the wear from the lid seals wears off the paint on the seat and it looks unclean. Not only is the lid a replaceable necessary item - so are the lid-seat and seat-bowl seals and they're big $$$ also. BTW, new Home Depot seats/lids for real toilets are $6.00 and last as long as home use. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:41:49 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: "yes" wrote in message .. . Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments. Do you have any personal experiance? Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. They make a normal size and a compact. It is true that you can't use a "Home Depot" seat with it. The seals ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody even cleans the sea. The seats aren't painted. The seals are non-marking white rubber and I've never seen a mark. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing - yuck. They don't get badly slimed unless the pump flapper is jammed. The same thing can happen on any head, often worse. The underside of the seat should be wiped down every few days, depending on the use. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. Don't kneel on them. They do flex with the vacuum, but mine hasen't broken in four years, and a friend has one that must be 15 years old. They cost $100, and should probably be considered an appropriate spare if you're leaving the realm of FedEx. Seals are a must. Also pump spares, but the Henderson parts can be easily had. A friend with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with Groco K's. As I've said, they are not for transients. |
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#8
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Lavac heads vs. others
"Baja-Mo" wrote in message
... Now we're getting some real facts on the table - we need more? Yes, I've lots of personal experience - with those of others. it looks doubtful ... It is true you don't get a "house bowl" sized seat like you can in real heads or home toilets. The Lavac Zenith seat is slightly larger than an American Standard seat, the Popular is slightly smaller. The differences are less than 1/2 inch. It's also true that after a while the wear from the lid seals wears off the paint on the seat and it looks unclean. Hasn't happened to us in 4 years years of use. If it start to show wear maybe I'll spring for a new seat - its only $24. Not only is the lid a replaceable necessary item - so are the lid-seat and seat-bowl seals and they're big $$$ also. As I said the seals are a necessary spare. For the Popular, a complete set of seat, lid, and both seals is $88. The Zenith lid & seat is more expensive. Its a myth the the seat and seals are "necessary." The pump will empty the bowl even it it can't form a vacuum. The vacuum is needed to draw water in. In a pinch, the head still functions without a seal. I keep a cup nearby so that if the previous user didn't pump enough to draw seawater in, I can add some. BTW, new Home Depot seats/lids for real toilets are $6.00 and last as long as home use. I paid $9.98 last week, but that was for a "Sky Blue" seat. But what's the point? Obviously part of the process of chosing any piece of gear you have to include the cost of all appropriate spares. The seat is one of the key components of the Lavac, $48 for a lid and seat is not that outrageous. |
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#9
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Lavac heads vs. others
My point was to get some truth and facts into the discussion - instead
of the gloss over that is happening. In fact, the Zenith seat is slightly smaller than an American standard toilet seat - see http://www.lavac.com/parts-list.htm and the Popular model is smaller still. In fact a Zenith replacement seat costs $108 and a Zenith replacement lid costs $108 and each seal costs $18 and a pump kit costs $46 - so a spare parts kit for a toilet is $298 - see URL above. Now everybody can see that you need not only spare pumps and pump kits but also spare lids and seal sets when cruising. $300 in spares for your toilet. Why not just be factual instead of quoting the most favorable numbers and glossing over the real facts. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:32:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: "Baja-Mo" wrote in message .. . Now we're getting some real facts on the table - we need more? Yes, I've lots of personal experience - with those of others. it looks doubtful ... It is true you don't get a "house bowl" sized seat like you can in real heads or home toilets. The Lavac Zenith seat is slightly larger than an American Standard seat, the Popular is slightly smaller. The differences are less than 1/2 inch. It's also true that after a while the wear from the lid seals wears off the paint on the seat and it looks unclean. Hasn't happened to us in 4 years years of use. If it start to show wear maybe I'll spring for a new seat - its only $24. Not only is the lid a replaceable necessary item - so are the lid-seat and seat-bowl seals and they're big $$$ also. As I said the seals are a necessary spare. For the Popular, a complete set of seat, lid, and both seals is $88. The Zenith lid & seat is more expensive. Its a myth the the seat and seals are "necessary." The pump will empty the bowl even it it can't form a vacuum. The vacuum is needed to draw water in. In a pinch, the head still functions without a seal. I keep a cup nearby so that if the previous user didn't pump enough to draw seawater in, I can add some. BTW, new Home Depot seats/lids for real toilets are $6.00 and last as long as home use. I paid $9.98 last week, but that was for a "Sky Blue" seat. But what's the point? Obviously part of the process of chosing any piece of gear you have to include the cost of all appropriate spares. The seat is one of the key components of the Lavac, $48 for a lid and seat is not that outrageous. |
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#10
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Lavac heads vs. others
The Popular seat is the same length and half an inch narrower than the A-S:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images...7977-specs.png The Zenith is a half inch wider. You may be looking at the width of the bowl. The Zenith Seats and Lids are $99 at Defender; the Popular is $24 each, as I said. For most cruisers only the seals and the pump kit is needed - this is well under $100. If you feel the need to carry a seat and lid, that is an extra $48 for the Popular, but $198 for the Zenith. I believe the Zenith cover is rather tough and not likely to break. The issue with the seat is that some users report discoloration. Yes, if you want the complete replacement of every part of the top of the line model, it can be pricey. For most cruisers its not too different from other repair kits. I'm not making this up- I'm really just giving the real numbers for my Lavac. The seals and pump kit is under $100, the lid and seat (which I don't carry a spare for) is $48. "yes" wrote in message ... My point was to get some truth and facts into the discussion - instead of the gloss over that is happening. In fact, the Zenith seat is slightly smaller than an American standard toilet seat - see http://www.lavac.com/parts-list.htm and the Popular model is smaller still. In fact a Zenith replacement seat costs $108 and a Zenith replacement lid costs $108 and each seal costs $18 and a pump kit costs $46 - so a spare parts kit for a toilet is $298 - see URL above. Now everybody can see that you need not only spare pumps and pump kits but also spare lids and seal sets when cruising. $300 in spares for your toilet. Why not just be factual instead of quoting the most favorable numbers and glossing over the real facts. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:32:05 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote: "Baja-Mo" wrote in message .. . Now we're getting some real facts on the table - we need more? Yes, I've lots of personal experience - with those of others. it looks doubtful ... It is true you don't get a "house bowl" sized seat like you can in real heads or home toilets. The Lavac Zenith seat is slightly larger than an American Standard seat, the Popular is slightly smaller. The differences are less than 1/2 inch. It's also true that after a while the wear from the lid seals wears off the paint on the seat and it looks unclean. Hasn't happened to us in 4 years years of use. If it start to show wear maybe I'll spring for a new seat - its only $24. Not only is the lid a replaceable necessary item - so are the lid-seat and seat-bowl seals and they're big $$$ also. As I said the seals are a necessary spare. For the Popular, a complete set of seat, lid, and both seals is $88. The Zenith lid & seat is more expensive. Its a myth the the seat and seals are "necessary." The pump will empty the bowl even it it can't form a vacuum. The vacuum is needed to draw water in. In a pinch, the head still functions without a seal. I keep a cup nearby so that if the previous user didn't pump enough to draw seawater in, I can add some. BTW, new Home Depot seats/lids for real toilets are $6.00 and last as long as home use. I paid $9.98 last week, but that was for a "Sky Blue" seat. But what's the point? Obviously part of the process of chosing any piece of gear you have to include the cost of all appropriate spares. The seat is one of the key components of the Lavac, $48 for a lid and seat is not that outrageous. |
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