On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:25:35 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

wrote:
To Peggie and the head heads:

I am intrigued by the vacuum method of Lavac heads: they seem simple
and efficient compared to the frankly sub-par (pun intended) majority
of marine heads I've seen. Peggie, I know you vend and prefer Raritan,
so feel free to make a case.

Hold the phone...I don't "vend" ANYTHING...I sold my company to Raritan,
but I have no relationship with them or any other company.

My apologies...I am obviously working on old and possibly incomplete
information.

I call 'em as
I see 'em (which is why I don't have a relationship with any mfr...they
all tend to get just a wee bit testy when an employee recommends a
competitor's product over their own). I do like MOST Raritan products,
but I'm not alone in that...PS and everyone else who tests equipment
rates 'em the best bang for the buck too, especially the manual PH II.

I'll check it out...if I can see one "live" around here.

Most people are day and weekend sailors: most people use the low-end
Jabsco, etc. brands. Myself, I have a Bryson from the '80s with parts
salvaged from another Bryson.

Not that it matters, but you mean Brydon--a version the Jabsco manual
that was made in Canada under licensing agreement. If today's Jabsco
toilets were built even half as well as the Brydon Boy was, they'd
outlast most PH IIs.

Correct...Brydon is the one. I *did* say I rebuilt it into a
FrankenHead from a salvaged one...but that can't last forever, so I am
looking for a better solution.

planning for next season a complete overhaul of my heads installation
and I am interested in Lavacs. The price is higher, but the logic
seems sound, and frankly, I value well-built and reliable over cheap
and cheerful.

The Lavac is an excellent toilet...made by Blake, whose "Baby Blake"
compact toilet is one of the best in the world--arguably better than the
W-C Skipper...both built to have lifespans measured in centuries if
maintained--and with price tags to match...about $1000.

Thank God the Canadian dollar is past 75 cents U.S.,,,,eek.

But as Jeff said, the Lavac is NOT child/landlubber
guest-friendly...instead, about as intimidating to 'em as the toilet on
submarine would be. So while it's an excellent choice for adult
blue-water cruisers, I can't recommend it for the typical "weekend
warrior" sailor.

I don't have guests usually, as the type of trips we take tend to be
about sailing, not ferrying a booze crew around G. Also, at dock I
tend to send 'em up to the clubhouse with a "scary head" story...I
don't like pumping out my own leaving, never mind visitors...So unless
it involves NASA-levels of complexity, it's not a deal-killer.


...I have
heard that Lavacs use too much water and are only appropriate for
"weekending". Why?

It's true that they do use a bit of flush water, but I dunno where
anyone got that idea...'cuz it's just the opposite--they have no moving
parts...the pump is a diaphragm bilge pump, and requires no more
maintenance than any other diaphragm bilge pump--occasional lubrication
and a new diaphragm every 5-10 years....compared to the average
piston/cylinder pump toilet, they're virtually maintenance-free. Which
is WHY they're so popular with blue water cruisers.

I like, I like...

Lots of British distance cruisers use Lavacs with
no complaint, or so I hear.

The Lavac can use a lot of flush water...but that doesn't matter to
blue water cruisers because they don't have to worry much about filling
up holding tanks...they flush directly overboard at sea and in many
foreign coastal waters too.

Fair enough. I guess they use the verboten "Y" connection in
conjunction with a vented loop...I think if I installed that in the
Great Lakes I'd have to convincingly disable it as our Coast Guard
frowns on the mere presence of a method to fire waste out the side...

If not Lavac, then, why, and what are good alternatives.

If it weren't for the relatively small holding tank on a very big "no
discharge" body of water...and if there's never (ok, rarely) anyone on
your boat but you and other well-seasoned sailors, I'd say go with the
Lavac. But if you're the typical weekender who only takes occasional
long cruises of a week or more, and frequently have guests aboard, I
don't think it's the right toilet for your boat.

OK, thanks. Any sense of how much the Lavac needs per flush? I draw
lake water into the head from the same thru-hull as the sink
drain...it's T'd off just below the waterline (above the standard
bronze ball cock at the thruhull end) and a plastic ball valve is
just below the sink drainpipe, so I alternate closing and opening the
T if I want to either drain the sink or pump the head. It works well
and is compact. Lots and lots of doubled SS hose clamps, though.

The only
heads firm I have heard nothing but praise for is W-C...

That depends on which model. Their low end Headmate doesn't get very
high marks...their top of the line Skipper and now discontinued Imperial
and Winner models are the best toilets you can buy. But they'll cost you
$700-$800 at discount. If you're planning to keep this boat for the rest
of your life, that's a worthwhile investment...but if you're like most
people who trade up or down (or into a trawler) every 3-10 years, I
think you can be just as happy with a toilet that costs about $250 at
discount-- the Raritan PH II. Lever action pump instead of the typical
"bicycle pump" allows it to swallow amounts of solids and TP that would
choke any other toilet under $700. Exceptionally durable...keep it
properly lubricated and rebuild it about every 5 years or so, and it'll
last at least 20 years before any hardware needs replacing.

I will follow it up then, thanks.

Stay away from the electrified version, though--the PHE II...the motor
does nothing but replace the pump handle, pumps it faster and with a
shorter stroke than pumping manually, which wears out seals and o-rings
twice as fast and causes it to choke on anything much more than 3 sheets
of TP. IMO putting a motor on a PH II turns a fine manual toilet into a
very poor excuse for an electric toilet.

I have no time for electric toilets with only two house batteries and
a 35 amp alternator G. I would electrify a windlass before a toilet.
The exercise is good for the arm...

Feel free to blast away. I want the benefit of experience beyond
wanting for Practical Sailor to revisit the topic.

They just did, about this time last year or the year before...and the PH
II came out on top...again, as it has every time for a couple of decades
and its predecessor PH did for a decade or two before that.

You asked for my $.02 worth...that's it.

Peggie

Many thanks, Peggie.

R.

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:49:17 -0700, yes wrote:

Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.

Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals
ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody
even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing -
yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum
pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush
with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend
with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with
Groco K's.

More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of
Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4
of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently
factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II
flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly
above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down
and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in
your arm and face. It's sewage water.

Thanks for the first-hand info. Quite the picture you paint, so to
speak. I wonder why this "technology" isn't perfected yet, but then I
guess people figure that to a sailor dopey enough to sail, anything
looks better than a cedar bucket or backing off the pulpit...G

R.

We replaced two vacuflush toilets with lavaks. In essence we traded an
electric vacuum toilet for a manual vacuum toilet.

The vacuflush was easy to plug and very unpleasant to unplug but used very
little water. They were nice toilets.

The lavaks have never been plugged by my children, friends children,
friends, drunks, scoundrels, cat, wife, or myself. Instructions say do not
sit on the toilet and press the button to flush. I think your insides would
be outside if you made a seal. The lavak uses more water. They are nice
toilets.

We all like different stuff, thats why they make wallpaper.

B





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:49:17 -0700, yes wrote:

Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.

Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals
ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody
even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing -
yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum
pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush
with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend
with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with
Groco K's.

More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of
Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4
of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently
factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II
flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly
above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down
and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in
your arm and face. It's sewage water.

Thanks for the first-hand info. Quite the picture you paint, so to
speak. I wonder why this "technology" isn't perfected yet, but then I
guess people figure that to a sailor dopey enough to sail, anything
looks better than a cedar bucket or backing off the pulpit...G

R.

Wow! I guess "the grass is always greener"! While I like my Lavac, I've often thought I
might try the Vacuflush on our "next boat."

The one special advise I'd give to anyone setting up a Lavac (and this probably holds for
all heads where there is an option) is try to locate and orient the pump so that it can be
cleaned easily. The primary way to clog a Lavac is to get something stuck under the
intake flapper. If the pump is setup right, this can be cleared in 5 minutes through an
access port. One mine, I have to remove the pump, but even so, it only takes 20 minutes
to be running again. I wonder if mine clogs on occasion because its an electric and you
can't give it an "extra vigorous" pump to clear it?



"Bryan B" wrote in message ...
We replaced two vacuflush toilets with lavaks. In essence we traded an
electric vacuum toilet for a manual vacuum toilet.

The vacuflush was easy to plug and very unpleasant to unplug but used very
little water. They were nice toilets.

The lavaks have never been plugged by my children, friends children,
friends, drunks, scoundrels, cat, wife, or myself. Instructions say do not
sit on the toilet and press the button to flush. I think your insides would
be outside if you made a seal. The lavak uses more water. They are nice
toilets.

We all like different stuff, thats why they make wallpaper.

B





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:49:17 -0700, yes wrote:

Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.

Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals
ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody
even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing -
yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum
pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush
with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend
with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with
Groco K's.

More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of
Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4
of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently
factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II
flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly
above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down
and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in
your arm and face. It's sewage water.

Thanks for the first-hand info. Quite the picture you paint, so to
speak. I wonder why this "technology" isn't perfected yet, but then I
guess people figure that to a sailor dopey enough to sail, anything
looks better than a cedar bucket or backing off the pulpit...G

R.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:24:42 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

Wow! I guess "the grass is always greener"! While I like my Lavac, I've often thought I
might try the Vacuflush on our "next boat."

The one special advise I'd give to anyone setting up a Lavac (and this probably holds for
all heads where there is an option) is try to locate and orient the pump so that it can be
cleaned easily. The primary way to clog a Lavac is to get something stuck under the
intake flapper. If the pump is setup right, this can be cleared in 5 minutes through an
access port. One mine, I have to remove the pump, but even so, it only takes 20 minutes
to be running again. I wonder if mine clogs on occasion because its an electric and you
can't give it an "extra vigorous" pump to clear it?

Well, if I chose Lavac I wouldn't go electric because I think it's an
unnecessary complication on a boat under 50 feet or so...particularly
when my batteries would be better devoted to radar, windlass, etc. If
the batteries conk, I can use a bucket, right? Not so with radar!

R.



"Bryan B" wrote in message ...
We replaced two vacuflush toilets with lavaks. In essence we traded an
electric vacuum toilet for a manual vacuum toilet.

The vacuflush was easy to plug and very unpleasant to unplug but used very
little water. They were nice toilets.

The lavaks have never been plugged by my children, friends children,
friends, drunks, scoundrels, cat, wife, or myself. Instructions say do not
sit on the toilet and press the button to flush. I think your insides would
be outside if you made a seal. The lavak uses more water. They are nice
toilets.

We all like different stuff, thats why they make wallpaper.

B





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:49:17 -0700, yes wrote:

Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.

Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals
ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody
even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing -
yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum
pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush
with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend
with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with
Groco K's.

More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of
Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4
of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently
factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II
flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly
above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down
and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in
your arm and face. It's sewage water.

Thanks for the first-hand info. Quite the picture you paint, so to
speak. I wonder why this "technology" isn't perfected yet, but then I
guess people figure that to a sailor dopey enough to sail, anything
looks better than a cedar bucket or backing off the pulpit...G

R.

We got the manual with the boat, and put in the electric a few months after we moved on
board. I noticed the beginnings of tennis (or is it golfer's?) elbow - perhaps it was
the orientation of my installation - the handle was horizontal, fairly high. The usage of
the electric is tiny, maybe a few Amp-minutes per flush. Its possible to set the pumps
in series if you want both, or as I've said, swap them out in 20 minutes. Since the basic
pump is a Henderson (now Whale) Mark V its easy to carry a whole spare - I got one on the
"clearance table" for $50.



wrote in message ...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:24:42 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote:

Wow! I guess "the grass is always greener"! While I like my Lavac, I've often thought
I
might try the Vacuflush on our "next boat."

The one special advise I'd give to anyone setting up a Lavac (and this probably holds
for
all heads where there is an option) is try to locate and orient the pump so that it can
be
cleaned easily. The primary way to clog a Lavac is to get something stuck under the
intake flapper. If the pump is setup right, this can be cleared in 5 minutes through
an
access port. One mine, I have to remove the pump, but even so, it only takes 20
minutes
to be running again. I wonder if mine clogs on occasion because its an electric and
you
can't give it an "extra vigorous" pump to clear it?

Well, if I chose Lavac I wouldn't go electric because I think it's an
unnecessary complication on a boat under 50 feet or so...particularly
when my batteries would be better devoted to radar, windlass, etc. If
the batteries conk, I can use a bucket, right? Not so with radar!

R.



"Bryan B" wrote in message
...
We replaced two vacuflush toilets with lavaks. In essence we traded an
electric vacuum toilet for a manual vacuum toilet.

The vacuflush was easy to plug and very unpleasant to unplug but used very
little water. They were nice toilets.

The lavaks have never been plugged by my children, friends children,
friends, drunks, scoundrels, cat, wife, or myself. Instructions say do not
sit on the toilet and press the button to flush. I think your insides would
be outside if you made a seal. The lavak uses more water. They are nice
toilets.

We all like different stuff, thats why they make wallpaper.

B





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:49:17 -0700, yes wrote:

Read the archives of this NG for many accurate comments.

Some points - the Lavac has a small seat and no ass room. The seals
ruin the paint on the seats and they always look dirty - like nobody
even cleans the sea. The Lavac seats freq are wet from flushing -
yuck. The lavac seat lids are prone to cracking from the vacuum
pressure or kneeling on them - cost $$$ and the toilet won't flush
with a cracked lid or bad seals - can't get good enuf vacuum. A friend
with a big French charter boat had 5 onboard - replaced them all with
Groco K's.

More - Raritan PH II heads are poorly designed and regardless of
Peggy's current ralationship - these are crappy toilets. I've owned 4
of them and replaced them with Groco K's. The Groco were recently
factory rebuilt by Groco - like new after 12 years hard use. The PH II
flush lever is horizontal and operating it puts your face directly
above the bowl - nice view. The lever operates a s/s rod up and down
and this rod has a "water lubricated" seal which tends to spray up in
your arm and face. It's sewage water.

Thanks for the first-hand info. Quite the picture you paint, so to
speak. I wonder why this "technology" isn't perfected yet, but then I
guess people figure that to a sailor dopey enough to sail, anything
looks better than a cedar bucket or backing off the pulpit...G

R.