Geoff,

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Don W wrote in
. net:


Hi Rosie,

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a
couple of crewmembers to go on the longer
passages. Worst case, you spend a little more on
the provisions.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the
Pacific I want at least four capable people on the
boat. This allows for 12 hour two-person shifts
at sea, as well as two people on the boat at all
times for anchor watch once you arrive. Only two
people on the boat is too much work for me. I'm
cruising to have fun!


If you think that 12 hour shifts are a good idea, then I never want to sail
with you! I personally think that 3 people crews work great. You get 4
on, 8 off. If there's a problem, then you've got 1 person who's been down
for at least 4 hours. Anything more than 4 hours at night is too long.

-- Geoff

A 12 hour two-person shift allows each person to
do 2 hours on, 2 hours off or 3 hours on, 3 hours
off with their companion crewperson, and then to
get up to 12 hours of uninterupted rest before
coming back on for another 12 hour two-person
shift. If there's a problem, you've got two
people who are on shift to take care of it without
waking the two who are off shift. Also, your 12
hour shift alway starts at the same time each day,
so you don't have to deal with upsetting your
sleep cycle.

If you think that this is a bad idea, I believe
you must still not quite understand how the
schedule works. It is much better than a 2-person
crew with 3 on / 3 off continuous, or your
3-person crew with 4 on / 8 off except in case of
need -- at least for me.

If you still think its a bad idea, I'd really like
to understand your objections.

Don W.

Wayne.B wrote:

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:00 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:


Anything more than 4 hours at night is too long.


I agree. My wife and I usually change watches on a loose schedule
based on when we get tired or when we wake up. This usually works out
to be about 3 hours at night.

Guy's,

I must not have explained it very well in the
other post.

Go back and look at what I wrote again. There are
_four_ people on the boat. During passages, there
are _two_ people "on" for 12 hours and then the
other two people take over for 12 hours. Each two
person team gets a full 12 hours off each 24 hours.

A typical scenario would be that Bob and Anne are
"on" from 3:00 PM to 3:00 AM. They can split that
twelve hours up any way they choose. If they want
to do 1, 2, 3, or 4 hour rotations during their
joint shift, they can. When Bob is at the helm,
Anne is available to make coffee and sandwiches,
or to help with a sail change, or to just hang out
in the cockpit and read a book.

Meanwhile Don and Nancy--who are "on" from 3:00AM
to 3:00 PM can sack out in the aft cabin together,
and know that they won't be disturbed unless there
is an "all hands" emergency. After ten hours of
sleep, they can get up, get cleaned up and
dressed, and then hang out for another hour before
they go "on" shift together.

Don W.

Larry wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Yes but Bob is going to be 71 in March, he's had a heart attack, and
our boat is a CSY 44

You two shouldn't even leave the slip without at LEAST TWO, Strong YOUNG
hands who know how to sail it without you.

Well that's as may be.

Although I think I could run the boat by myself if I absolutely had to
(we have both been working out at the gym this winter, so I'm more fit
than I was), and especially I can motor, and work the autopilot and
all the communications stuff, get the weather and navigate. I can
also turn the engine on and I know how to anchor..

At the worst, I know how to call for help on the radio

Mostly I don't want Bob singlehanding, but if it comes to a point
where he is pigheaded enough to go without me when I don't think going
is safe then I will have a hard decision to make. Let him go and
perhaps die?

Larry wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

He says I'm chicken.

Nothing is "chicken" about being smart.

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.

His IS crazy....you may quote me.

We do have all roller furling so that we can handle all the sails from
the cockpit and don't need to go on deck except to anchor or come in
to a dock.

I never works that way....and shouldn't be PLANNED to work that way.
Lionheart's roller furling takes place at the bottom of the mast, not aft

The actual roller part of the main (it is behind the mast furling) is
right in front of the companionway to the forward cabin, so it is not
only in view, but Bob can reach the reel that winds up the line from
the cockpit. So it is almost in the cockpit.

Now the staysail and jib both have lines led back to the cockpit and
are farther forward.

in the cockpit. I don't think I'd want to do it any other way because
from the cockpit you can't see it's all going wrong before the damned
thing is jammed, which I can see from right under the roller before it
becomes a problem and can roll it back out to clear it.

Your roller must be placed differently than ours. We can see.

Planning on worst case scenario, you must be setup to go forward in heavy
weather to clear the inevitable crash of these systems.

We do have harnesses and jacklines, and we wear PFDs all the time when
underway (unless we are off watch asleep, when it is quite easy to
hand). That is Bob's rule for anyone on our boat. (He also makes me
wear shoes on deck.) Bob always clips onto the jacklines whenever the
weather is at all bumpy.

Rosalie is the smart one aboard....STAND Your ground, girl! You got it
right and SAFE!

Larry

Well as I said before - most of the times we've gotten in trouble have
been when Bob persuaded me to go against my better judgment. But
let's face it - I can be as cautious as you like and still be wrong
about the weather or whatever the problem turns out to be. I use as
much information as I have available, but sometimes even that and
experience doesn't fully work to keep us out of trouble

We've just been fortunate in that when we've guessed wrong or made
mistakes that it didn't have a serious bad result. Mostly just some
paint scraped off the keel or something like that.

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:00 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Anything more than 4 hours at night is too long.

I agree.

Not necessarily. After much experimentation, we found that what works
best for my wife and I is that I go to bed at dusk, leaving her on watch
until midnight when we swap. I then take over until she wakes up
(usually shortly after dawn). During the day, we're less formal about
it, but generally switch back and forth every 3 hours or so. Obviously,
this won't work for everybody, but for us it does.

We tried all sorts of different systems before settling on this. I was
OK with just about any of them, but we found that unless she gets a long
uninterrupted break at night, after a few days the sleep deprivation
starts really getting to her. You don't want to be on the same boat as
my wife when she's sleep deprived. It ain't pretty.

Don W wrote:
Geoff,

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Don W wrote in
. net:

Hi Rosie,

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a couple of
crewmembers to go on the longer passages. Worst case, you spend a
little more on the provisions.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the Pacific I want at
least four capable people on the boat. This allows for 12 hour
two-person shifts at sea, as well as two people on the boat at all
times for anchor watch once you arrive. Only two people on the boat
is too much work for me. I'm cruising to have fun!


If you think that 12 hour shifts are a good idea, then I never want to
sail with you! I personally think that 3 people crews work great.
You get 4 on, 8 off. If there's a problem, then you've got 1 person
who's been down for at least 4 hours. Anything more than 4 hours at
night is too long.

-- Geoff

A 12 hour two-person shift allows each person to do 2 hours on, 2 hours
off or 3 hours on, 3 hours off with their companion crewperson, and then
to get up to 12 hours of uninterupted rest before coming back on for
another 12 hour two-person shift. If there's a problem, you've got two
people who are on shift to take care of it without waking the two who
are off shift. Also, your 12 hour shift alway starts at the same time
each day, so you don't have to deal with upsetting your sleep cycle.

If you think that this is a bad idea, I believe you must still not quite
understand how the schedule works. It is much better than a 2-person
crew with 3 on / 3 off continuous, or your 3-person crew with 4 on / 8
off except in case of need -- at least for me.

If you still think its a bad idea, I'd really like to understand your
objections.

Don W.

Your original post on 12 hour shifts wasn't clear. I thought you meant
12 continuous hours on shift, which is almost impossible. 3 on, three
off for 12 hours is very doable.
krj

Dan Best wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:00 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Anything more than 4 hours at night is too long.

I agree.

Not necessarily. After much experimentation, we found that what works
best for my wife and I is that I go to bed at dusk, leaving her on watch
until midnight when we swap. I then take over until she wakes up
(usually shortly after dawn). During the day, we're less formal about
it, but generally switch back and forth every 3 hours or so. Obviously,
this won't work for everybody, but for us it does.

We tried all sorts of different systems before settling on this. I was
OK with just about any of them, but we found that unless she gets a long
uninterrupted break at night, after a few days the sleep deprivation
starts really getting to her. You don't want to be on the same boat as
my wife when she's sleep deprived. It ain't pretty.

In our case it is the other way around. I can sleep almost any time
and anywhere but Bob can't. I can also pretty much can wake myself
every couple of hours, so I can also do the anchor watches.

That's one reason I won't go more than an overnight offshore. It is
possible that if we actually did a multi-day passage that he would
eventually conk out and go to sleep when he was off-watch, but I don't
want to count on it.

Normally for offshore (which we've done quite a bit off on the last
trip we did - Miami to Ft. Pierce, St. Mary's River to Charleston and
Charleston to Cape Fear River), I will take a nap in the morning and
then relieve Bob for a little bit, but he won't sleep. So I will make
lunch

He will make dinner which we eat together in the cockpit during the
daylight, and I will go to bed right afterwards. I wake up about 11
and then take over from him and he will try to sleep. He usually
gives up sometime during the night (I once remarked that he'd been to
the bathroom twice and he complained that I was checking up on him,
but as he turns on the light in the head at night, I could see it
shining from the porthole) and comes back up into the cockpit. But
sometimes I'm still there at sunrise. Otherwise he will come back up
around 2 or 3 and I will go take another nap.

If he wakes up and sees it is daylight he thinks he's overslept and we
should be there and he starts doing stuff like shaving and eating and
stuff like that, and getting the boat ready to come into the harbor.

Rosalie B. wrote:
Larry wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote in
m:


Yes but Bob is going to be 71 in March, he's had a heart attack, and
our boat is a CSY 44


You two shouldn't even leave the slip without at LEAST TWO, Strong YOUNG
hands who know how to sail it without you.


Well that's as may be.

Although I think I could run the boat by myself if I absolutely had to
(we have both been working out at the gym this winter, so I'm more fit
than I was), and especially I can motor, and work the autopilot and
all the communications stuff, get the weather and navigate. I can
also turn the engine on and I know how to anchor..

At the worst, I know how to call for help on the radio

Mostly I don't want Bob singlehanding, but if it comes to a point
where he is pigheaded enough to go without me when I don't think going
is safe then I will have a hard decision to make. Let him go and
perhaps die?

Maybe you could find an acceptable compromise by
insisting that you would like to go along, but you
also want a third (or fourth) crew along as well.
I think there are quite a few unpaid
volunteers available if you look around far enough
in advance, and you can always hire a licensed
captain to accompany you if desperate. Some of
them are looking to build sea time, and are
available quite inexpensively. A lot of bareboat
charter companys maintain lists of independent
captains.

I am assuming that it is the passages that you are
most worried about, and not gunkholing around the
islands.


Don W.

krj wrote:

Don W wrote:

Geoff,

Geoff Schultz wrote:

Don W wrote in
. net:

Hi Rosie,

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a couple of
crewmembers to go on the longer passages. Worst case, you spend a
little more on the provisions.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the Pacific I want at
least four capable people on the boat. This allows for 12 hour
two-person shifts at sea, as well as two people on the boat at all
times for anchor watch once you arrive. Only two people on the boat
is too much work for me. I'm cruising to have fun!



If you think that 12 hour shifts are a good idea, then I never want
to sail with you! I personally think that 3 people crews work
great. You get 4 on, 8 off. If there's a problem, then you've got 1
person who's been down for at least 4 hours. Anything more than 4
hours at night is too long.

-- Geoff


A 12 hour two-person shift allows each person to do 2 hours on, 2
hours off or 3 hours on, 3 hours off with their companion crewperson,
and then to get up to 12 hours of uninterupted rest before coming back
on for another 12 hour two-person shift. If there's a problem, you've
got two people who are on shift to take care of it without waking the
two who are off shift. Also, your 12 hour shift alway starts at the
same time each day, so you don't have to deal with upsetting your
sleep cycle.

If you think that this is a bad idea, I believe you must still not
quite understand how the schedule works. It is much better than a
2-person crew with 3 on / 3 off continuous, or your 3-person crew with
4 on / 8 off except in case of need -- at least for me.

If you still think its a bad idea, I'd really like to understand your
objections.

Don W.

Your original post on 12 hour shifts wasn't clear. I thought you meant
12 continuous hours on shift, which is almost impossible. 3 on, three
off for 12 hours is very doable.
krj

Ahh... I thought it must have come out a little
muddled.

Don W.

Don W wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Larry wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote in
:


Yes but Bob is going to be 71 in March, he's had a heart attack, and
our boat is a CSY 44


You two shouldn't even leave the slip without at LEAST TWO, Strong YOUNG
hands who know how to sail it without you.


Well that's as may be.

Although I think I could run the boat by myself if I absolutely had to
(we have both been working out at the gym this winter, so I'm more fit
than I was), and especially I can motor, and work the autopilot and
all the communications stuff, get the weather and navigate. I can
also turn the engine on and I know how to anchor..

At the worst, I know how to call for help on the radio

Mostly I don't want Bob singlehanding, but if it comes to a point
where he is pigheaded enough to go without me when I don't think going
is safe then I will have a hard decision to make. Let him go and
perhaps die?

Maybe you could find an acceptable compromise by
insisting that you would like to go along, but you
also want a third (or fourth) crew along as well.

Yes that has always been something that would work for me. But he
doesn't want to consider it. He just doesn't want anyone else but me
on the boat. If push came to shove, I don't know what I would do.

We had a couple go with us for 3 weeks on the ICW and I enjoyed that
so much. But they've got their own boat now - a smaller CSY. She
won't do ocean passages with him, and so he single hands and she meets
him in the ports. But I think he's a bit younger than Bob, and she's
much more of a chicken than I am.

I think there are quite a few unpaid
volunteers available if you look around far enough
in advance, and you can always hire a licensed
captain to accompany you if desperate. Some of
them are looking to build sea time, and are
available quite inexpensively. A lot of bareboat
charter companys maintain lists of independent
captains.

I am assuming that it is the passages that you are
most worried about, and not gunkholing around the
islands.

We didn't take the boat out at all last summer because he was having
dental work done every week. So we will see how it goes this summer.
I'm perfectly happy gunkholing around in the Chesapeake for a couple
of weeks at a time.

He doesn't want to fly anywhere, so I guess if I'm going to travel at
all, I'll have to start taking my grandchildren with me. I'm going to
Ireland in June with the fourth oldest one (the first two are 26 and
24 years old respectively, and the third one died when he was 2.5)