I have the reguired hours to have an opinion. I am also going to drop the
thread in that I think Skip's account is a good first step.

Note that I picked up on it because we were ducking the issue. They should
not have gone as manned. The problem was that Lydia was not yet blooded.
She did not have the experience of hard weather and she was prone to sea
sickness. So Skip was in fact a single hander with an assistant, He failed
to behave as such and may have lost his boat as a result.

I don't believe the chant of both crew members can do everything. Almost
never happens. Sometimes the Lady is the Captain...but almost always the
guy is the muscle. The Ladies stand watch capably and that makes it all
work. Sure there are some couples were she is fully as capable as he...but
that is not the primary pattern.

And there is nothing wrong with only one muscle person. Works fine. You
set up for it. You go to sleep with a configuration that is almost certain
to let you get four hours and clear instructions to wake you if it ain't
working. In bad conditions you sleep in the cockpit a half hour at a time.


"mr.b" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, Bob graced the ethernet with:

yadda, yadda, yadda

snip

psst Bob...switch to decaf, and take some time to look up the 'tact' in
the dictionary. Skip and Lydia drove their boat onto the rocks, not you
and the olecapt. The last thing they need right now is a couple of
armchair admirals telling them about their competence.
Grow a brain.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in news:1171228147.825891.228200
@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

My prayer for S&L and others is to
take a long hard look at the events that preceed their departure and
know that more of the same will only bring more of the same.
Bob


My analysis long before the event was that they HAD to be in the Bahamas
on a certain day to meet the kids. They "HAD to get there". I think
that is patently wrong on any sailboat that has less than a 1000 HP
engine.

No sailboat can be forced to "get there" on a certain day...sometimes
even a certain week! It's just not going to happen....safely. There's
way too many SUV drivers who are used to making Miami in 7.5 hours behind
that helm. We get there when we get there....and not a minute before we
get there. If we don't get there on schedule, we screwed up not because
we did it wrong....but because there was a schedule in the first place.

We left on schedule, no matter whether everything was running right and
everything was fixed.

We sailed on schedule, taking a chance heading into Marathon from the
wrong direction because the stupid Florida Keys are just AWFUL in a boat.

The schedule was the problem.

The solution is easy. You sail to the Bahamas, safely, no matter how
long it takes, even weeks. Isn't that great?! AFTER you've settled into
a slip or anchorage, THEN you call the kids and say, "We've arrived in
the Bahamas, safely, and will wait any length of time it takes for you to
get here and enjoy it with us!" There was no schedule to get there, no
timetable to disaster. There was no schedule for the kids to get there,
either, even though they are flying which is less of a schedule problem.

Damn everyone in a sailboat that's always in a HURRY! I sure hate to
sail with them. So doesn't my captain.... Becalmed 90 miles S of
Charleston on 80W in flat seas and NO WIND, he asked me what I thought.
"I think I'm going to get some sleep, how about you? The wind will come
up sometime this week, probably, maybe, enough to make it worth our while
to put the sails back out. I need to be home by November." (It was July
or something like that.) Isn't that why we took $400 in gourmet food
aboard and cases of beer? We weren't transporting them from Florida to
Charleston to resell..(c; "Hmm...which pate will we serve with cocktails
at happy hour this afternoon?....should we break out the sliced Salmon?"
Decisions, decisions..... "Hand me that half gallon of single malt
Scotch, will you? My glass has a leak.....God the stars are beautiful in
flat seas 90 miles out totally becalmed, laying here on the aft cabin on
my back looking straight up.....and it's SO PEACEFUL!" If it's like this
in the morning, we'll check the water in the batteries and pull that
cable for the XM antenna we forgot for the stereo.

Larry

RELAX-----WE'LL GET THERE--------------------SOME DAY!

Words of wisdom, Larry. Sailing to meet a schedule won't necessarily lead to
disaster, but it certainly increases the likelihood of it.

On Feb 11, 4:18 pm, Larry wrote:
"Bob" wrote in news:1171228147.825891.228200
@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

My prayer for S&L and others is to
take a long hard look at the events that preceed their departure and
know that more of the same will only bring more of the same.
Bob


My analysis long before the event was that they HAD to be in the Bahamas
on a certain day to meet the kids. They "HAD to get there". I think
that is patently wrong on any sailboat that has less than a 1000 HP
engine.
The schedule was the problem.
Larry
RELAX-----WE'LL GET THERE--------------------SOME DAY!


Hi Larry, I must humbly agree. That is one of the most obvious red
flags about this terrible event. Another I noticed dovetails with the
schedule problem. Why so urgent to depart?

After a year living together with my hot 21 yo girlfriend she casually
mentions one afternoon what I thought about getting married. I said,
uhh.....oh.... ya, maybe we should start talking about that. A week
later she had the announcements mailed out.........WTF! I thought we
were just going to talk about it!?!?!?!? Next, came all the smiles,
congratulations, the way to go son comments from parents bosses,
teachers. I felt so trapped and there was no way I could call it off.
Too many people would be soo disappointed. The rest is history. Lesson
learned? When a huge group thinks you're going to do something there
is tremendous pressure to comply.

Braced for the inevitable flames, I'll venture another speculation
based on several of Skip's post dating back to his vessel search days.
This is yet another elephant sitting in the living room: the care-
taker relationship that seems to exist. And then there is the question
of maintenance medications. I am not ****ing on any cornflakes here. I
simply posit the obvious. Yet others will consider these words simply
"too rude and insulting for decent people to talk about in public."
Personally I hang my laundry on my stays for all to see.

Larry wrote:

"Olecapt" wrote in
:

Hmm silence. Is it the "we are not going to offer an opinion
because Skip and Lydia will see it?" Or is the subject simply too
painful to raise. That is how we avoid a lot of the truths in blue
water sailing.


As I was talking to Skip on Skype, I told him we don't take Lionheart
offshore to do anything serious without 6 sailors aboard, 2 per watch
section, 3 watch sections so you can get some REST under any conditions.
Most everyone out there trying to get away from humanity is sailing with
way too few actual sailors, not professionals but able hands strong
enough to haul in a fouled main tearing up in the wind at 2AM.

This is what I would like. I would go to Bermuda or down to the
Caribbean with Bob, but NOT without at least one other able bodied
person aboard to stand the watches. And he won't do that. So we
don't go. He says I'm chicken.

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.

We do have all roller furling so that we can handle all the sails from
the cockpit and don't need to go on deck except to anchor or come in
to a dock.

It's none of my business how others sail, but as we're talking about it,
I think an able man sailing with a wife who couldn't bring the boat
around and save his life if he simply fell overboard is really too
dangerous for all. Even if she doesn't get him back aboard, able or even
alive, what is she to do, stand and scream? She MUST be properly trained
and be able to handle the boat in fair, not just wonderful,
conditions....especially alone offshore.

You all know what I'm talking about.....It's not about Skip and Lydia.
How many of you have told your best sailing friends, "John, I don't think
you and Julie should go offshore by yourselves like you do."......do you?

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.


19 year old neighbor singlehanded a Columbia 28 to Maui last summer
to do a little surfing!
Gordon

Hi Rosie,

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a
couple of crewmembers to go on the longer
passages. Worst case, you spend a little more on
the provisions.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the
Pacific I want at least four capable people on the
boat. This allows for 12 hour two-person shifts
at sea, as well as two people on the boat at all
times for anchor watch once you arrive. Only two
people on the boat is too much work for me. I'm
cruising to have fun!

Don W.

Rosalie B. wrote:
Larry wrote:

As I was talking to Skip on Skype, I told him we don't take Lionheart
offshore to do anything serious without 6 sailors aboard, 2 per watch
section, 3 watch sections so you can get some REST under any conditions.
Most everyone out there trying to get away from humanity is sailing with
way too few actual sailors, not professionals but able hands strong
enough to haul in a fouled main tearing up in the wind at 2AM.


This is what I would like. I would go to Bermuda or down to the
Caribbean with Bob, but NOT without at least one other able bodied
person aboard to stand the watches. And he won't do that. So we
don't go. He says I'm chicken.

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.

Don W wrote:

Hi Rosie,

I don't see what is the big deal about getting a
couple of crewmembers to go on the longer
passages. Worst case, you spend a little more on
the provisions.

It isn't you I'm sailing with. You don't have to convince ME.

Personally, I decided some time ago that to do the
Pacific I want at least four capable people on the
boat. This allows for 12 hour two-person shifts
at sea, as well as two people on the boat at all
times for anchor watch once you arrive. Only two
people on the boat is too much work for me. I'm
cruising to have fun!

Don W.

Rosalie B. wrote:
Larry wrote:

As I was talking to Skip on Skype, I told him we don't take Lionheart
offshore to do anything serious without 6 sailors aboard, 2 per watch
section, 3 watch sections so you can get some REST under any conditions.
Most everyone out there trying to get away from humanity is sailing with
way too few actual sailors, not professionals but able hands strong
enough to haul in a fouled main tearing up in the wind at 2AM.


This is what I would like. I would go to Bermuda or down to the
Caribbean with Bob, but NOT without at least one other able bodied
person aboard to stand the watches. And he won't do that. So we
don't go. He says I'm chicken.

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.

Gordon wrote:

Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.


19 year old neighbor singlehanded a Columbia 28 to Maui last summer
to do a little surfing!
Gordon

Yes but Bob is going to be 71 in March, he's had a heart attack, and
our boat is a CSY 44


grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

Rosalie B. wrote:
Gordon wrote:
Now he's talking about singlehanding, and that's crazy.

19 year old neighbor singlehanded a Columbia 28 to Maui last summer
to do a little surfing!
Gordon

Yes but Bob is going to be 71 in March, he's had a heart attack, and
our boat is a CSY 44


grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

That do make a difference!
g

In article ,
Larry wrote:

"Bob" wrote in news:1171228147.825891.228200
@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

My prayer for S&L and others is to take a long hard look at the
events that preceed their departure and know that more of the same
will only bring more of the same. Bob

My analysis long before the event was that they HAD to be in the
Bahamas on a certain day to meet the kids. They "HAD to get there".
I think that is patently wrong on any sailboat that has less than a
1000 HP engine.

I registered their sailing to a "date" as questionable before they left
their dock. That's a violation of the primary cruising rule.

Still, I can't say that I would have done anything different under the
conditions they found themselves at the time.

But, as objectionable as I find my next pronouncement to be, would they
have been so rushed to get out of Dodge if they hadn't just paid the
exorbitant FL taxes? Meeting the kids in Georgetown was easily within
their capabilities, and the date or place could easily have been
changed, but getting out of Florida by a date certain was their first
order of business at the time.

Sad to say, but what FL demanded of them was far less than they will
have to pay for trying to avoid FL's taxes.

Would I try the same? You Betcha! They didn't owe FL anything as they
never intended to be in FL any longer than absolutely necessary. Their
dream boat just happened to be stowed there.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/