Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote:

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long
periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for
short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle,
it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little
over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power.

A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery)
would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that
rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be
a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get
around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30
minutes before the battery is completely discharged.

To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at
the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you
will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day.

You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries -
this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an
upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect
to be away from shore power for more than a day or two.

You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is
dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter
or other "house" loads.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

This is an easy calculation for you.

1) Find the battery bank capacity, in terms of volts, and
ampere-hours.
(To get the feel of it, recall some car batteries are 12 volt, 100
amp-hours)

2) Find the desired load.
As an illustration, take a microwave as 1 kilowatt = 1000 watts.

3) Reduce 1) to compatible units: e.g. 12 X 100 - watt - hour = 1200
watt-hour

4) For 100% conversion efficiency, divide number in 3) by number in 2)
1200 watt-hour/1000 watt = 1.2 hours.

4) Then use a realistic efficiency - from 50% to 90%
1.2 hours X 50% = 0.6 hr = 36 minutes

Brian Whatcott


On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote:

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

The only air-conditioner I know of for a small boat like your Bayliner that
will work and not consume tons of batteries is a product by INNOVA TECH that
uses ice for the cooling. It consumes 1.6-3.3 Amps 12V for 6500 BTU of
cooling power. combine that with the new extreme coolers and you have enough
ice for 5-7 days of Cool and dehumidify conditioned air.

Jack


"John Tretick" wrote in message
...
Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor
with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

Let's do a little math.........

How much power does a house battery have?

Hmm....It says 330 amp-hour at a 20 hour rate (not 500 amps all at
once). Let's pretend it's 300AH for this lesson. We gotta fudge
somewhere, this is math! It's a 13.8V battery but loaded up let's say
12V to keep it simpler. V x AH = watt hours (not kilowatt hours like
at home). 12V x 300AH= 3600 watt hours of "house power" in the bank.
(Your AH may vary, look on the battery.) If we draw 1000 watts, it
should run 3.6 hours (but it won't make it quite that far because 1000
watts divided by 12V = 83.3A plus the losses in the inverter, probably
90A. 90A, for reference, is a running starter turning over a dead 6
cylinder diesel engine. How long can we crank the dead engine before
we're out of juice? Is the picture coming in any clearer, yet?

2000W is 180A at 12V! Make damned sure the house battery wires are
size 000 wires! 000 wires is 200A continuous, which is what a 2000W
inverter is gonna pull, if it can....continuously, not just a pulse
like the starter needs to get the engine moving. Wow...180A seems
like a LOT of current. It is!

I'd bet we could pull the A/C with that monster about 30 minutes off
an inverter...give or take 20 minutes. Do you see why? There just
isn't that kind of power available to start with unless you're on a
diesel submarine with 6,250AH battery cells that are about 6' high, 4'
wide and 3' deep. Great ballast, though. Causes a diesel sub to SINK
if we let the air out of the ballast tanks! They got lots more than 6
cells and run lots higher voltage than 12V, too. It's more efficient,
as Tom Edison found out from Nikola Tesla, who invented your AC power
system.

NOTHING is funnier than watching a boater with a new 4KW Heart
inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with a big smile
on his face.....(c;

Larry W4CSC/MM
S/V Lionheart
with 700AH battery banks and a more reasonable 500W inverter.....


On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote:

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John





Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

If you are really seriously considering using 120V appliances on your boat
then you might want to consider a small portable generator like the Honda
EU2000i. 2000 watts 60Hz and a DC Output of 8.3 amps at 12V. It only
weights 47 lbs 20Lx11Wx16H. It can be fastened on the swim platform for
all the 120 power your going to need. 1 gal. of gas will run it for 4 hours.
Of course you need to be careful that you don't die from carbon monoxide
poisoning. But you will be able to power all your 120V appliances and run
any type of air-conditioner.

Jack
"Jack Rye" .# wrote in message
news:fbegb.18929$Rd4.3877@fed1read07...
The only air-conditioner I know of for a small boat like your Bayliner
that
will work and not consume tons of batteries is a product by INNOVA TECH
that
uses ice for the cooling. It consumes 1.6-3.3 Amps 12V for 6500 BTU of
cooling power. combine that with the new extreme coolers and you have
enough
ice for 5-7 days of Cool and dehumidify conditioned air.

Jack


"John Tretick" wrote in message
...
Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when
not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor
with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm
anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W
which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious
how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

Let me second the thrust of Peter's remarks with different math.

Really good deep cycle lead acid batteries nominally store around 15
watt hours per pound (multiply 20 hour rate capacity by voltage and
divide by weight). However, if you discharge them all the way, they
will have a very short life. It is also hard to get them fully
charged, so a good estimate of actual usable capacity is around five
watt hours per pound, particularly in high drain applications where
the nominal 20 hour rate capacity is too high.

This means that if you want to use your proposed 1.5KW inverter for
one hour, you need 1.65KWH of usable battery capacity, which will
weigh around 330 pounds. This assumes the inverter has 90% efficiency,
which is probably close.

You can beat the weight with NiCd or NiMH, but the cost is so high
that I have seen NiCd batteries for house loads on only one boat, an
ex-Royal New Zealand Navy survey vessel. You can also cut it somewhat
by using cheap, light batteries, but their life will be much less than
a heavy deep cycle set (might be as few as 25-50 cycles).

It also means that you have to be able to put 3KWH back into the
battery (lead acid chemistry is only around 50% efficient). Since it
would be better not to charge it at the high rate you're discharging
it, you'll need to run your engine, with a new, big, alternator for at
least a couple of hours after each hour of inverter time.

As for cost -- the alternator and smart voltage regulator required
will be around US$1000. Good lead acid batteries cost around $2 per
pound, so it's about $600 for the batteries. Add wiring, fuses,
bracket for the alternator, new, heavy battery boxes, and the
inverter, and you're well above $2,500 if you do all the work
yourself.

One possibility is to put in a much smaller new battery set, but a
really big alternator -- say 200 amps -- and run your engine whenever
you want power. This will require careful management, as the battery
will not like being charged at that rate, but it will be a lot
lighter. Not much cheaper, though.

BTW, if you put in an alternator and battery set solely for the use of
the inverter, consider going to 24V. It's much more efficient and
requires much smaller wires.


Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Peter Bennett wrote in message rnews.com...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote:

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long
periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for
short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle,
it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little
over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power.

A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery)
would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that
rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be
a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get
around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30
minutes before the battery is completely discharged.

To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at
the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you
will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day.

You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries -
this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an
upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect
to be away from shore power for more than a day or two.

You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is
dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter
or other "house" loads.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote (with possible editing):

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

I did, but it was years ago. The other posters are quite right - you
really should never use battery backup to produce heat, it just
doesn't make sense. We used isolators and a second backup bank of
batteries so that we'd never run down the engine starting batteries.

--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

Jim and Peter what it really comes down to is that they bought the wrong
size boat for what they want to do. They should have bought the entry level
bayliner 26'er. That way they could have a micro, air-conditioning and all
the creature 120V comforts of home. By the time he's done rigging up the
boat to run all the 120V appliances and air-conditioning. Sacrificing space,
and trying to make it all fit. He would be better off trading in the 21' day
cruiser for a 26' already set up for overnight cruising.

Jack
"Jim Woodward" wrote in message
om...
Let me second the thrust of Peter's remarks with different math.

Really good deep cycle lead acid batteries nominally store around 15
watt hours per pound (multiply 20 hour rate capacity by voltage and
divide by weight). However, if you discharge them all the way, they
will have a very short life. It is also hard to get them fully
charged, so a good estimate of actual usable capacity is around five
watt hours per pound, particularly in high drain applications where
the nominal 20 hour rate capacity is too high.

This means that if you want to use your proposed 1.5KW inverter for
one hour, you need 1.65KWH of usable battery capacity, which will
weigh around 330 pounds. This assumes the inverter has 90% efficiency,
which is probably close.

You can beat the weight with NiCd or NiMH, but the cost is so high
that I have seen NiCd batteries for house loads on only one boat, an
ex-Royal New Zealand Navy survey vessel. You can also cut it somewhat
by using cheap, light batteries, but their life will be much less than
a heavy deep cycle set (might be as few as 25-50 cycles).

It also means that you have to be able to put 3KWH back into the
battery (lead acid chemistry is only around 50% efficient). Since it
would be better not to charge it at the high rate you're discharging
it, you'll need to run your engine, with a new, big, alternator for at
least a couple of hours after each hour of inverter time.

As for cost -- the alternator and smart voltage regulator required
will be around US$1000. Good lead acid batteries cost around $2 per
pound, so it's about $600 for the batteries. Add wiring, fuses,
bracket for the alternator, new, heavy battery boxes, and the
inverter, and you're well above $2,500 if you do all the work
yourself.

One possibility is to put in a much smaller new battery set, but a
really big alternator -- say 200 amps -- and run your engine whenever
you want power. This will require careful management, as the battery
will not like being charged at that rate, but it will be a lot
lighter. Not much cheaper, though.

BTW, if you put in an alternator and battery set solely for the use of
the inverter, consider going to 24V. It's much more efficient and
requires much smaller wires.


Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Peter Bennett wrote in message
rnews.com...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote:

Hello Group,
+
I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when
not
at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor
with
a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI
circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm
anchored.
Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W
which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..
but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that..

Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious
how
long you can run on it without depleting one battery..
Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose.

Thaks,

John

You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long
periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for
short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle,
it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little
over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power.

A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery)
would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that
rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be
a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get
around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30
minutes before the battery is completely discharged.

To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at
the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you
will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day.

You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries -
this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an
upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect
to be away from shore power for more than a day or two.

You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is
dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter
or other "house" loads.

John Tretick wrote:

.... Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which
works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC..

I dunno John, Honda's EU2000 costs twice as much but is about the same
size/wt as an extra battery and inverter and will prolly cost less over
a few years. I just bought a 1000W gas generator much like the Honda for
$350 but my needs are less and I have gas for my Atomic-4 aboard anyway.