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I need DC and AC power source .
Hello Group,
+ I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John |
I need DC and AC power source .
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote: Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle, it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power. A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery) would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30 minutes before the battery is completely discharged. To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day. You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries - this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect to be away from shore power for more than a day or two. You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter or other "house" loads. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
I need DC and AC power source .
This is an easy calculation for you.
1) Find the battery bank capacity, in terms of volts, and ampere-hours. (To get the feel of it, recall some car batteries are 12 volt, 100 amp-hours) 2) Find the desired load. As an illustration, take a microwave as 1 kilowatt = 1000 watts. 3) Reduce 1) to compatible units: e.g. 12 X 100 - watt - hour = 1200 watt-hour 4) For 100% conversion efficiency, divide number in 3) by number in 2) 1200 watt-hour/1000 watt = 1.2 hours. 4) Then use a realistic efficiency - from 50% to 90% 1.2 hours X 50% = 0.6 hr = 36 minutes Brian Whatcott On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick" wrote: Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John |
I need DC and AC power source .
The only air-conditioner I know of for a small boat like your Bayliner that
will work and not consume tons of batteries is a product by INNOVA TECH that uses ice for the cooling. It consumes 1.6-3.3 Amps 12V for 6500 BTU of cooling power. combine that with the new extreme coolers and you have enough ice for 5-7 days of Cool and dehumidify conditioned air. Jack "John Tretick" wrote in message ... Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John |
I need DC and AC power source .
Let's do a little math.........
How much power does a house battery have? Hmm....It says 330 amp-hour at a 20 hour rate (not 500 amps all at once). Let's pretend it's 300AH for this lesson. We gotta fudge somewhere, this is math! It's a 13.8V battery but loaded up let's say 12V to keep it simpler. V x AH = watt hours (not kilowatt hours like at home). 12V x 300AH= 3600 watt hours of "house power" in the bank. (Your AH may vary, look on the battery.) If we draw 1000 watts, it should run 3.6 hours (but it won't make it quite that far because 1000 watts divided by 12V = 83.3A plus the losses in the inverter, probably 90A. 90A, for reference, is a running starter turning over a dead 6 cylinder diesel engine. How long can we crank the dead engine before we're out of juice? Is the picture coming in any clearer, yet? 2000W is 180A at 12V! Make damned sure the house battery wires are size 000 wires! 000 wires is 200A continuous, which is what a 2000W inverter is gonna pull, if it can....continuously, not just a pulse like the starter needs to get the engine moving. Wow...180A seems like a LOT of current. It is! I'd bet we could pull the A/C with that monster about 30 minutes off an inverter...give or take 20 minutes. Do you see why? There just isn't that kind of power available to start with unless you're on a diesel submarine with 6,250AH battery cells that are about 6' high, 4' wide and 3' deep. Great ballast, though. Causes a diesel sub to SINK if we let the air out of the ballast tanks! They got lots more than 6 cells and run lots higher voltage than 12V, too. It's more efficient, as Tom Edison found out from Nikola Tesla, who invented your AC power system. NOTHING is funnier than watching a boater with a new 4KW Heart inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with a big smile on his face.....(c; Larry W4CSC/MM S/V Lionheart with 700AH battery banks and a more reasonable 500W inverter..... On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick" wrote: Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John Larry W4CSC 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right? |
I need DC and AC power source .
If you are really seriously considering using 120V appliances on your boat
then you might want to consider a small portable generator like the Honda EU2000i. 2000 watts 60Hz and a DC Output of 8.3 amps at 12V. It only weights 47 lbs 20Lx11Wx16H. It can be fastened on the swim platform for all the 120 power your going to need. 1 gal. of gas will run it for 4 hours. Of course you need to be careful that you don't die from carbon monoxide poisoning. But you will be able to power all your 120V appliances and run any type of air-conditioner. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:fbegb.18929$Rd4.3877@fed1read07... The only air-conditioner I know of for a small boat like your Bayliner that will work and not consume tons of batteries is a product by INNOVA TECH that uses ice for the cooling. It consumes 1.6-3.3 Amps 12V for 6500 BTU of cooling power. combine that with the new extreme coolers and you have enough ice for 5-7 days of Cool and dehumidify conditioned air. Jack "John Tretick" wrote in message ... Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John |
I need DC and AC power source .
Let me second the thrust of Peter's remarks with different math.
Really good deep cycle lead acid batteries nominally store around 15 watt hours per pound (multiply 20 hour rate capacity by voltage and divide by weight). However, if you discharge them all the way, they will have a very short life. It is also hard to get them fully charged, so a good estimate of actual usable capacity is around five watt hours per pound, particularly in high drain applications where the nominal 20 hour rate capacity is too high. This means that if you want to use your proposed 1.5KW inverter for one hour, you need 1.65KWH of usable battery capacity, which will weigh around 330 pounds. This assumes the inverter has 90% efficiency, which is probably close. You can beat the weight with NiCd or NiMH, but the cost is so high that I have seen NiCd batteries for house loads on only one boat, an ex-Royal New Zealand Navy survey vessel. You can also cut it somewhat by using cheap, light batteries, but their life will be much less than a heavy deep cycle set (might be as few as 25-50 cycles). It also means that you have to be able to put 3KWH back into the battery (lead acid chemistry is only around 50% efficient). Since it would be better not to charge it at the high rate you're discharging it, you'll need to run your engine, with a new, big, alternator for at least a couple of hours after each hour of inverter time. As for cost -- the alternator and smart voltage regulator required will be around US$1000. Good lead acid batteries cost around $2 per pound, so it's about $600 for the batteries. Add wiring, fuses, bracket for the alternator, new, heavy battery boxes, and the inverter, and you're well above $2,500 if you do all the work yourself. One possibility is to put in a much smaller new battery set, but a really big alternator -- say 200 amps -- and run your engine whenever you want power. This will require careful management, as the battery will not like being charged at that rate, but it will be a lot lighter. Not much cheaper, though. BTW, if you put in an alternator and battery set solely for the use of the inverter, consider going to 24V. It's much more efficient and requires much smaller wires. Jim Woodward www.mvFintry.com Peter Bennett wrote in message rnews.com... On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick" wrote: Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle, it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power. A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery) would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30 minutes before the battery is completely discharged. To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day. You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries - this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect to be away from shore power for more than a day or two. You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter or other "house" loads. |
I need DC and AC power source .
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick"
wrote (with possible editing): Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John I did, but it was years ago. The other posters are quite right - you really should never use battery backup to produce heat, it just doesn't make sense. We used isolators and a second backup bank of batteries so that we'd never run down the engine starting batteries. -- Larry Email to rapp at lmr dot com |
I need DC and AC power source .
Jim and Peter what it really comes down to is that they bought the wrong
size boat for what they want to do. They should have bought the entry level bayliner 26'er. That way they could have a micro, air-conditioning and all the creature 120V comforts of home. By the time he's done rigging up the boat to run all the 120V appliances and air-conditioning. Sacrificing space, and trying to make it all fit. He would be better off trading in the 21' day cruiser for a 26' already set up for overnight cruising. Jack "Jim Woodward" wrote in message om... Let me second the thrust of Peter's remarks with different math. Really good deep cycle lead acid batteries nominally store around 15 watt hours per pound (multiply 20 hour rate capacity by voltage and divide by weight). However, if you discharge them all the way, they will have a very short life. It is also hard to get them fully charged, so a good estimate of actual usable capacity is around five watt hours per pound, particularly in high drain applications where the nominal 20 hour rate capacity is too high. This means that if you want to use your proposed 1.5KW inverter for one hour, you need 1.65KWH of usable battery capacity, which will weigh around 330 pounds. This assumes the inverter has 90% efficiency, which is probably close. You can beat the weight with NiCd or NiMH, but the cost is so high that I have seen NiCd batteries for house loads on only one boat, an ex-Royal New Zealand Navy survey vessel. You can also cut it somewhat by using cheap, light batteries, but their life will be much less than a heavy deep cycle set (might be as few as 25-50 cycles). It also means that you have to be able to put 3KWH back into the battery (lead acid chemistry is only around 50% efficient). Since it would be better not to charge it at the high rate you're discharging it, you'll need to run your engine, with a new, big, alternator for at least a couple of hours after each hour of inverter time. As for cost -- the alternator and smart voltage regulator required will be around US$1000. Good lead acid batteries cost around $2 per pound, so it's about $600 for the batteries. Add wiring, fuses, bracket for the alternator, new, heavy battery boxes, and the inverter, and you're well above $2,500 if you do all the work yourself. One possibility is to put in a much smaller new battery set, but a really big alternator -- say 200 amps -- and run your engine whenever you want power. This will require careful management, as the battery will not like being charged at that rate, but it will be a lot lighter. Not much cheaper, though. BTW, if you put in an alternator and battery set solely for the use of the inverter, consider going to 24V. It's much more efficient and requires much smaller wires. Jim Woodward www.mvFintry.com Peter Bennett wrote in message rnews.com... On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:41:29 GMT, "John Tretick" wrote: Hello Group, + I have a 24" Bayliner Cierra 2001 and I am interested in using AC when not at port. No place to install a generator, so I'm thinking an invertor with a batterstore. Possibly increasing my batteries to 3 and wiring in GFI circiut to power mixers, inflators , hairdriers, etc.. when I'm anchored. Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. but I guess I'd have to get a larger on for that.. Has anyone installed this redundant power source defore? I'm curious how long you can run on it without depleting one battery.. Actually thinking about installing a third battery for this purpose. Thaks, John You can use an inverter to power small AC loads for fairly long periods, or large loads (like a microwave or electric kettle) for short periods. If you have a 1200 watt 120 V load such as a kettle, it will draw 10 amps at 120 volts, but the inverter will draw a little over 100 amps from the batteries to produce that power. A Group 27 battery (about 25% larger than a traditional car battery) would be rated about 110 amp-hours, if I recall correctly, but that rating assumes the battery is discharged over 20 hours, which would be a draw of only 5 amps. Drawing 100 amps, you will likely only get around 50% capacity, so you could only run your kettle for about 30 minutes before the battery is completely discharged. To determine the battery capacity you need, you will have to look at the likely AC loads you will want to use, and the length of time you will use each one, to compute the total amp-hours required per day. You will also have to make some provision to recharge the batteries - this will require a high capacity battery charger, and probably an upgrade of the alternator and regulator on the engine, if you expect to be away from shore power for more than a day or two. You should also re-arrange the batteries so that one battery is dedicated to engine starting, and can't be discharged by the inverter or other "house" loads. |
I need DC and AC power source .
John Tretick wrote:
.... Northern tools sells a sealed Marine invertor for 399 its 3000/1500W which works for my purposes.. doubt it would run the AC.. I dunno John, Honda's EU2000 costs twice as much but is about the same size/wt as an extra battery and inverter and will prolly cost less over a few years. I just bought a 1000W gas generator much like the Honda for $350 but my needs are less and I have gas for my Atomic-4 aboard anyway. |
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