On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:09:33 -0500, DSK wrote:

OK, I stand corrected. However, ULDB's are quite popular on SF Bay,
they're for more than just drifting around

I wonder how many ever go outside. Of course some do, but a lot more
don't.

And FWIW I agree about the optimism with regard to speed. The Westsail
is one of the slower crab-crushers and while it's a common crab-crusher
fantasy to say "My boat is faster than all those lightweight clorox
bottles, once the wind gets up enough for REAL sailing," my experience
has been that as long as the LW clorox sailor is competent & not
anchored, the fast boat is always faster... upwind, downwind... blow
high, blow low.

Under power too -- the Westsail is a slow boat. A friend has one, and
when we all cruise together we eventually lose him because he can't keep
up, doing only 5-5.5kt under power.

Another problem is maneuverability in tight spots -- the Westsail won't
turn tightly or back straight, and the big bowsprit doesn't help. In
reality it's a 40 footer, that handles like a 60 footer. There are plenty
of slips our friend just can't get into (or out of).

Still, he loves his boat, and has at least as much fun with it as the rest
of us do with ours. As far as speed goes, where we cruise the cove next
door is as nice as the one 50 miles away, so who cares?

Matt O.

FWIW almost any boat that didn't have major leaks is likely to survive a
really bad storm, provided she doesn't encounter a really bad combination
of waves by chance. OTOH, if the luck is really bad, nothing is going to
survive no matter how heavy.


Maxprop wrote:
From the damage sustained by that boat, it was assumed that the waves had
rolled it several times, or perhaps pitchpoled the boat. Are you implying
that, say, a Hunter 30 built during the same general period would have fared
as well?


If the hatches & ports didn't break in, sure. Why wouldn't
it? The Hunter 30 would be more likely to spend more time
upside-down though, if rolled.

Unless you carefully gather data on how long abandoned boats
survive in hurricane+ conditions, you're just indulging in
idle name-calling.


Your friend must have had good sails, a lightly loaded boat, and been a
good sailor. I've never seen one move at all under sail when there were't
whitecaps.


You must not have had much experience with them.

Depnds on what you call "much." There have been a few
Westsails around most of the places I've sailed, and I've
had a few friends who owned them.


?? ??
You're joking. Or the other boats were anchored.


No joke. If I had a dollar for every time we passed faster, leaner boats
under those conditions, especially around 20kts. or better, I wouldn't be
rich, but I could probably buy a new pair of Topsiders.

Well, my experience has been that crab-crusher sailors like
to make this claim, but for every time they outsail another
boat there are two basic facts
1- the other boat is either much smaller or has some good
reason for being slow, like 5 years of bottom growth
2- there are 50 other examples of being outsailed by similar
vessels, which the crab-crusher sailor neglects to observe
or mention.

For example, I was good friends with a couple who onwed a
very very nice Thomas Gilmer designed full keeler. They
insisted it could outsail "any" fin-keeler in higher winds.
They based this on have once outrun an O'Day of the mid-20'
size range. I sailed against them in a Morgan 27 one day of
30+ winds and literally could run rings around them. I was
afraid they would never speak to me again, but I think the
social convention was that they pretended it never happened
and I could still be friends as long as I was gentlemanly
enough to not mention it, either.

I also observed them dropping behind many other less racy
production fin keelers of similar size. Same with Westsails
although I've never made as direct a test of it.


... Above 15kts. the
lightweight boats reduce sail. The Wetsnail (sloop, in this case) carried
full sail to 40kts.

And it still has a fat cross section and rather low righting
moment per pound of displacement.

... I typically reduced sail a
bit sooner, but then I prefer to keep a boat on its feet.


It's true that many hull forms don't mind heeling as much as
boxy fin-keelers do (sails like a dinghy), but that doesn't
make them any faster.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...

The average boater buys for "typical sailing conditions," then lives in
fear of getting caught out in anything stronger than 15 knots. I'll take
the Wetsnail over a modern putty boat any day of the week, and twice on
Sundays.

The competent sailor has confidence in his abilities and knows his
limitations. The "average boater" you describe above is a typical
Catalina 30 owner who never really learned to sail and doesn't know
enough about heavy weather sailing to be anything but a hazard to himself
and his passengers. His Catalina is stout enough to handle 70kts and big
waves, but he most likely isn't. If he knew what he was doing, he
wouldn't need an overbuilt boat like the Wetsnail.

Max


So are you saying that the "average" sailor is also a competent one?

To the contrary. The average sailor is like the average golfer--good enough
to play the game but not to score well.

Max

"Gilligan" wrote in message

Just think of all that excess loading on the sails and rigging.

. . . which for a Wetsnail is no problem. Everything is overbuilt,
including the rigging. Most W32 owners specify their sails in the very
heavy fabric range.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net...

To the contrary. The average sailor is like the average golfer--good enough to play the game but not to score well.

Max


That is laughable. The average sailor is nothing like the average golfer.
The average golfer is out on the course regularly. He spends more time
golfing than talking about golf. He has pride in his game. The average
sailor sits around and jaw jacks about sailing more than he actually sails.
His verbiage consists of the transparent sort that leads a competent
listener to conclude forthwith that he is full of ****.

But, you are correct, sir, when you allude to the specific of competency
level. I could posit a golfer who never swung a club being able to negotiate
a golf course with greater dispatch than a new sailor with a new boat being
able to negotiate a crowded inlet with aplomb if not without incident.

In general, people who sail don't take it seriously, instead they use sailing as
a means of escape. In most cases they are escaping a life consisting of one
shameful failure after another, thus they have no expectations other than
failure when it comes to sailing. Should they screw up to a grand extent, they
can always write a horror story and submit it to a sailing magazine which will
happily and with great dispatch print it knowing their readers will readily
identify with it and lap it up like so much milk and honey. It's par for the
sailing course!

Such is the sad state of sailing.

Paladin,
(Have gun - will travel)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Paladin wrote:

To the contrary. The average sailor is like the average golfer--good enough to play the game but not to score well.
Max


That is laughable. The average sailor is nothing like the average golfer.

In general, people who sail don't take it seriously, instead they use sailing as
a means of escape. In most cases they are escaping a life consisting of one
shameful failure after another, thus they have no expectations other than
failure when it comes to sailing. Should they screw up to a grand extent, they
can always write a horror story and submit it to a sailing magazine which will
happily and with great dispatch print it knowing their readers will readily
identify with it and lap it up like so much milk and honey. It's par for the
sailing course!
Such is the sad state of sailing.
Paladin,


So where would you place yourself in that discription?

In general, people who sail don't take it seriously, instead they use
sailing as
a means of escape. In most cases they are escaping a life consisting of
one
shameful failure after another, thus they have no expectations other
than
failure when it comes to sailing.



In general people who sail like to go sailing. They generally have fun
no matter how "seriously" they approach it. Then there is a small
minority who appear to be obsessed, worried and jealous of how others
enjoy their boats. I have only encountered the latter online and for
the most part even those folks are just kidding.
Let's hope you are as well.


Robert B
Beneteau 35s5
NY
See our Heart of Gold under sail....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d0nSgsgOApg