Wheeler:

We'd better be very careful here. I didn't mean to imply that "any visible
faults will be cosmetic." You could find evidence of damage from accidents
or wear--"faults"--that will indeed be structural, so heads up. My boat,
for example, had a sizeable pocket of rot in the bowsprit that I didn't find
(and neither could the surveyor) until I pulled the anchor winch to refinish
the 'sprit. That was a serious structural problem. (CAPER now sports a
stainless steel bowsprit.) There can be any number of other "faults" that
are far more serious than simply cosmetic.

What I meant to say was that the hulls of the "kit" boats and the
factory-finished boats had the same initial structural integrity, because
the buyers of the kit boats didn't have to DO anything that was structural.
They just finished the interiors. (Well, they rigged them, too, and I guess
that is "structural" in a strict definition.)
Some interiors were done extremely well, some not so well, but the "faults"
you'd see would be cosmetic--not structural.

So do be careful, and when it comes time for a survey get in touch with Bud
Taplin at Worldcruiser Yachts. His surveys are literally peerless. Bud was
the General Manager of Westsail in the early days, and nobody knows the
boats better.

The rumble I've heard about the later boats has to do with the glass/resin
mix. As OPEC jacked up petroleum prices, resin got more expensive, so the
financially-troubled company started cutting corners. That's the rumor, but
I've never seen a late '70's boat that showed a direct result. The rumor
has not been confirmed in fact, in other words. I wouldn't reject a later
boat on this basis--but neither would I buy one without a Bud Taplin survey.

(Why haven't I thought of this until now? Here's the link to Bud's website.
Email him directly for the straight dope on the later boats--or any other
question you might have. His email address is on the site.
http://www.westsail.com/index.htm)

Cheers and fair winds,

Dick Behan




"WHEELER WHEELER" wrote in message
...
Thank you for your kind input. I feel more confident now as I continue to
consider a Westsail 32. I understand that any visible faults, especially
on
the kit boats, will be cosmetic and therefore not substantial.

What I have heard is that the later hull numbers--those built in the late
'70s--suffered from some faults in manufacture because the company was
getting into financial trouble during that period. Does anyone know
specifically what weakness were built into the later boats? Are these
cosmetic, too?

"R.W. Behan" wrote in message
...
Wheeler:

I'm a Westie, too-- W32 CAPER, hull #WSSK552, a "kit" boat, nicely
finished. The "weak points in construction" you ask about should not be
a
worry, in my opinion. The "kits" were furnished as completed hull-deck
assemblies, many with engines installed so the owners could power them
home.
What the "builders" did after that was the interior joinery, i.e.,
almost
exclusively cosmetic work. Yes, there may be a locker door a bit
off-square, but the structural integrity--the immense strength of these
boats--was achieved at the factory. I agree with another poster that
most
of the kit-boats are very nicely finished. I've seen only one
exception--where the builder used mostly, it seems, a jacknife to finish
his
boat. So here's my suggestion: when you're shopping for a boat, you can
see
the cosmetic flaws, and avoid them if you choose. What you can't
see--the
structural integrity of the boat--you don't need to worry about. Yes,
W32's
are not fast boats; they were designed originally (Colin Archer) as
rescue
boats, to aid Norwegian fisherman in distress in winter storms in the
North
Sea. Seaworthiness was paramount, and nothing stood in the way of that.
They are a delight to sail--easily single-handed if you know how to
heave
to
when it's time to reef--and as comfortable in a seaway as any boat I
know.
Yes, I'm partisan.

Cheers,

Dick B.


"WHEELER WHEELER" wrote in message
...
I am looking at a Westsail 32 to sail between the islands of Hawaii
and
on
Kaneohe Bay, Oahu. Does anyone know the pros and cons of Westsail 32s?
What
weak points in construction should I be aware of? Thanks.

Alas and alack. Though I've sailed boats as small as 8 feet and as large as 75
feet ... boats with one sail, two sails, three sails, four sails and even five
sails ... in winds as little as 0.01 knots and a high as 60+ knots (pegged ASI)
with sustained gusts ... in waters from the Pacific to the Atlantic to the
Caribbean to LIS to the Chesepeake to Midwestern lakes, I have never actually
sailed any of the 750 some Westsail 32's made.

This means, of course, I am totally out of bounds -- utterly without experience
-- with my statement that a fat-assed 21,000 pound boat with a 11-1/2 foot beam
and a 26 foot waterline is a slow sailor. Unless, perhaps, you might be
willing to go out on a limp and accept my personal experience of passing by
W-32's left and right and north and south in every winds I have ever been
sailing and have chanced upon a W32 also sailing.

Would I buy a W32? Of course I would if they weren't priced about 50% of their
intrinsic value. Lots of similarly capable boats out there with asking prices
well under current W32 alure.

For the person not able to distinguish a Weatherly 32 from a Roughwater 33, a
Westsail 32 is a safe choice. Go spend the money.

Mr. Ashby:

Have you sailed a Westsail 32?

Respectfully,

Dick Behan




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
W32's
are not fast boats; they were designed originally (Colin Archer) as
rescue
boats, to aid Norwegian fisherman in distress in winter storms in the
North
Sea. Seaworthiness was paramount, and nothing stood in

the W32 was designed (reliable sources say, on the factory floor as glass
was
laid up) as a fiberglass version of the 1930's Wm Aitkin 32 foot design
called
"Eric", which was Aitkin's version (many would say, improved version) of
the
Colin Archer boats.

The Aitkins 38 footer "Ingrid" lives on today, though the 36 footer "Erin"
is
long forgotten by most (seems there is probably good reason for that).

Keep in mind that Colin Archer boats were designed in their day to be
sailed by
iron men of skill and athletic coordination. The boats needed a LOT of
sail to
make them move in light winds, sail that had to be struck very quickly as
the
winds piped up.

dougie, your views of how W32 was designed in no way match any opinions of any
who were there at the time.

The W32 was designed to be a fiberglass version of the 1930's Aitkin "Eric",
and the W32 was designed using "eyeball engineering". The W32 came in weighing
more than the wooden Eric and -- by all informed accounts -- perhaps less of a
sailor.

The W32 does have the rep (well deserved by most accounts) of being as fine a
heavy weather boat as the Eric.

The W32 is NOT, however, a speed demon.

WHEELER WHEELER wrote:

... I understand that any visible faults, especially on
the kit boats, will be cosmetic and therefore not substantial.

Not necessarily. It may appeal as a sort of Zen-like attitude, "If you can
see it,
it doesn't matter" but don't bet your life.

They best approach would be to do some study on what boat structures should
look
like, and then get out there and look at some real world samples. Brokers
hate
tire-kickers but it's the best way to learn.

JAXAshby wrote:


the W32 was designed (reliable sources say, on the factory floor as glass
was
laid up) as a fiberglass version of the 1930's Wm Aitkin 32 foot design
called
"Eric", which was Aitkin's version (many would say, improved version) of
the
Colin Archer boats.

Not even, unless they changed it dramatically on the factory floor. You can
look at
the lines plan of any of Atkins redningskoite designs and look at the hull of
a
Westsail 32.... even if you can only see it above the waterline... there is
some
slight family resemblance but the designs are quite different.

Of course, you have to know what to look for and have at least 20/300
vision...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Dick, sailboats work like this:

Mr. Ashby:

I didn't call your experience into question, but this statement

"The boats needed a LOT of sail to make them move in light winds, sail that
had to be struck very quickly as
the winds piped up."

is nonsense, as you would know if you'd sailed a W32.

A 21,000 pound boat with a 26 foot waterline and a 11-1/2 beam needs -- as in
requires -- a LOT of sail to move in lite winds.

That is the nature -- the physics -- of sailing. 21,000 pounds of water
displacement every boatlength moved, and displaced up to nearly 6 six
horizontally each length, and make that horizontal movement in less than 13
feet each boatlength makes for one hell of a lot of power needed, i.e. a LOT of
sail in lite air.

Of course, if one defines a *tiny scrap of sail* to be **only** a 200 square
foot main sail AND **only** a 450 square foot genoa AND **only** a 180 square
foot staysail ... AND ***lite*** winds to be 12+ knots, then sure the boat
moves in lite winds.

I'll say it again: A 21,000 pound boat with a 26 foot waterline and a 11-1/2
foot beam *requires* the sails of a 21,000 pound boat with short waterline and
broad beam.

btw, the typo below should have read 50% over intrisic value, not of intrinsic
value.

Would I buy a W32? At a reasonable for what you get price, sure, as long as I
understood the limitations of the 21,000 pound boat in a 12,000 pound world.


Your sailing experience is certainly noteworthy, but I must inquire about
your consumer economics. You would buy a Westsail "if they weren't priced
about 50% of their intrinsic value," you say. Sounds like you'll do anything
to avoid a bargain. Apparently you'll wait 'til the prices rise to 100% of
intrinsic value. Tell you what: I'll sell you mine for 200%.

Fair winds,

Dick Behan



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Alas and alack. Though I've sailed boats as small as 8 feet and as large
as 75
feet ... boats with one sail, two sails, three sails, four sails and even
five
sails ... in winds as little as 0.01 knots and a high as 60+ knots (pegged
ASI)
with sustained gusts ... in waters from the Pacific to the Atlantic to the
Caribbean to LIS to the Chesepeake to Midwestern lakes, I have never
actually
sailed any of the 750 some Westsail 32's made.

This means, of course, I am totally out of bounds -- utterly without
experience
-- with my statement that a fat-assed 21,000 pound boat with a 11-1/2 foot
beam
and a 26 foot waterline is a slow sailor. Unless, perhaps, you might be
willing to go out on a limp and accept my personal experience of passing
by
W-32's left and right and north and south in every winds I have ever been
sailing and have chanced upon a W32 also sailing.

Would I buy a W32? Of course I would if they weren't priced about 50% of
their
intrinsic value. Lots of similarly capable boats out there with asking
prices
well under current W32 alure.

For the person not able to distinguish a Weatherly 32 from a Roughwater
33, a
Westsail 32 is a safe choice. Go spend the money.

yeah, sure. 21,000 pounds is only 20,000 pounds, and 850 square feet is only
663 square feet, and 18 to 20 knots is a "lite" wind.

I would buy a W32 in a micro second ---- IF ---- they were priced right
according to intinsic value, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut they ain't.

****LOTS**** of well-valued boats out there at prices well less than that of
W32's.

Not that a W32 is a bad boat -- it isn't -- it is just that there are better
values for the buck spent.

Today, the W32 is a safety decision for the marginally informed. *If* you are
willing to spend an extra ten or twenty or thirty or forty grand for a 4 knot
boat the W32 will do ya well.

btw,

If you haven't sailed a W32, you can descibe its sailing characteristics
only with mathematics or hearsay, right?

no, for **I** can descrivbe "its sailing charactistitics" on seeing W32's
sailing alone side my boat and other boats. I stand by my claim that the W32
is a 21,000 pound boat in a 12,000 pound world.

Jax, look:
If you haven't sailed a W32, you can descibe its sailing characteristics
only with mathematics or hearsay, right? I'm not saying they're fast
boats--they're designed for seaworthiness above all else. (Some boats
designed for speed above all else break up and sink, like some 12-meters,
eh?) But the Westsail does NOT need a huge sail area to sail very nicely in
light air: all I can say is try it for yourself. My boat moves along quite
well--actually surprisingly well--in very light wind with only the working
sails, and I don't have to haul them in quickly when the wind pipes up. As
you can imagine, and I hope you'll agree, with 3-1/2 tons of lead in the
full keel, the W32 stands up to her sails extremely well. Typically I put
the first tuck in the main at 18-20 knots, the second at 25+, furl the
Yankee at 35 and then boom along in great comfort with the double-reefed
main and stays'l at about 7 knots, close to hull speed. (No, they are NOT
fast boats.) Try it; you'll like it.

I think you're overlooking something in your physics analysis, though I'm
not nearly good enough at science to explain it in technical terms. My
boat--ANY boat in the water--will move downwind in ANY wind. The slightest
force will do the trick. I watched one time a couple of guys push a 150'
barge with a crane on it away from a dock BY HAND. Any boat will respond to
the slightest force by moving through the water away from the force. So
let's assume a slight zephyr. Let's raise the sails. Even in a
W32.....away we go. I've done it dozens of times.

A few technical corrections for the W32: LWL = 27'6", not 26'; beam is 11',
not 11.5; displacement is 20,000 lbs., not 21,000; and working sail area is
663 square feet, not 830. And the reason Westsails are so expensive is
because every single buyer of one thinks they're worth it.

Fair winds and blue skies, mate. It's been fun jousting.

Dick



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Dick, sailboats work like this:

Mr. Ashby:

I didn't call your experience into question, but this statement

"The boats needed a LOT of sail to make them move in light winds, sail
that
had to be struck very quickly as
the winds piped up."

is nonsense, as you would know if you'd sailed a W32.

A 21,000 pound boat with a 26 foot waterline and a 11-1/2 beam needs -- as
in
requires -- a LOT of sail to move in lite winds.

That is the nature -- the physics -- of sailing. 21,000 pounds of water
displacement every boatlength moved, and displaced up to nearly 6 six
horizontally each length, and make that horizontal movement in less than
13
feet each boatlength makes for one hell of a lot of power needed, i.e. a
LOT of
sail in lite air.

Of course, if one defines a *tiny scrap of sail* to be **only** a 200
square
foot main sail AND **only** a 450 square foot genoa AND **only** a 180
square
foot staysail ... AND ***lite*** winds to be 12+ knots, then sure the boat
moves in lite winds.

I'll say it again: A 21,000 pound boat with a 26 foot waterline and a
11-1/2
foot beam *requires* the sails of a 21,000 pound boat with short waterline
and
broad beam.

btw, the typo below should have read 50% over intrisic value, not of
intrinsic
value.

Would I buy a W32? At a reasonable for what you get price, sure, as long
as I
understood the limitations of the 21,000 pound boat in a 12,000 pound
world.

Inertia matters for sailing performance. The W32 is a heavy
displacement cruiser,

inertia is what slows the motion of a W32 in a rough seaway. that is probably
the biggest real advantage of a W32.

On the other hand, the extra 8,000 pounds displacement (about 4 cubic yards of
water) of a W32 as compared to other boats of its size **must** be moved out of
the way -- and must be moved up to 1/2 half the beam of the boat, or about 6
feet -- each and every boat length (about 26 feet, 27 feet, or even 28 feet
when overloaded and down on its waterline) the boat moves forward.

Move a 21,000 pound W32 forward just one mile and you have moved sideways more
than a thousand cubic yards of water (weighing more than 2,000,000 pounds) more
than a 12,000 pound boat, and you have moved it sideways up to a total of six
feet.

That is one hell of a lot of effort, and -- in lite winds -- it takes one hell
of a lot more sail.

Inertia makes for a smoother motion in a seaway, and inertia makes for the need
of larger sails in lite winds.