"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In DSK writes:

"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.

Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is
related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-).

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous
adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in
different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

This something I try to say, if you want a windvane, get a proper one,
if you want something to carry your boat while you are in the loo, a
tiller pilot is doing a decent job, and it doing it reasonably cheap,

I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a
temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am
going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is
related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-).


Well, sure. All the way down to a rock, which is max
friction but free

The first couple of cheapo rigs I tried had too much
friction. Then I just used a bicycle hub... lasted only a
couple weeks in the salt water, but if you buy a cheap
2nd-hand bike (or steal one) it comes with a spare.



The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous
adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in
different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm.


Right, but unless your tiller in infinitely long, the system
has to generate enough force to move it against weather helm
(up to a point).

There is a clever windvane rig I saw some time ago that used
a tiller pilot for an actuator, and would follow the wind or
the compass depending on which you chose.


I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a
temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am
going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane.


One of the issues with using a windvane on some boats is
that they generate apparent wind, and can wander all over
the place as the accelerate & decelerate. I heard a story
about a fellow who fitted one to a reasonably fast cruising
cat, and with every gust the boat would accelerate & bear
away, until suddenly it stalled and would almost come to a
stop, and refuse to resume course.

Tiller pilots don't do that, although they do have some
other annoying shortcomings

DSK

Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:



Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system; the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into
the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are
reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do
not see any reason to be offended.

There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but
in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two
things.

It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and
money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list,
remember they are at least cheap.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
...
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 26 Oct 2006 00:16:31 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen)
wrote:

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

Good question.

Tom, AKA alias du jour, is good on questions, bad on well intentioned
advice. He's a challenge, and is easily confused by the facts.

Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except
where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right
to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was
not a wise investment .......

I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap"

Check the postings...

As for or to the postings saying the sheet to tiller system of self steering
does not work .. that may be the case or it may not be the case.

I discovered one web page of an owner of a 28' sailboat that swears by his
sheet to tiller self steering system. He admits that it does not work on
all points of sail, nor does it work as well as an expensive windvane
system, but; he is satisfied with his system and he sails a bit offshore.

The attraction to the cruising newsgroup is the diverse opinion and the give
and take.

If the answer was always ... "you should not own a boat because you don't
have lots of money like I do"

Then, the newsgroup would be very poor.

===========================


"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In P%S%g.7320$ke4.5998@trndny02 "NE Sailboat"
writes:



Did I say I could not afford $3k, or did I say that it would not be a good
investment for me as I am not planning a long ocean voyage.

If I am going to spend $3k, I want to spend it wisely. Where I moored
last
summer there were numerous boats with wind vane systems, wind vane systems
that never ever got used. Dah ???

So, I posted for info about a less expensive and less reliable system;
the
sheet to tiller system.

Now I am Mr Cheapo.

So far I know how to read, you were the one taking the word "cheap" into
the discussion. If we do not know about systems that work and are
reliable in various conditions and advice againts cheap solutions, I do
not see any reason to be offended.

There are always people who believe that they can by good and cheap, but
in most cases if you want to have GOOD and CHEAP, you end up needing two
things.

It is your prerogative to make whatever you please with your boat and
money, but if you do not like the advice or comments on this list,
remember they are at least cheap.

Sometimes I wonder ,, I really do.

So I wonder sometimes why people bother to give any advise here.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

===================================


"DSK" wrote in message
t...
"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you could never
really
afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in
the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat stuff costs,
anyway). The main expense would be getting the frame strong & rigid
enough, and after that, providing low friction bearings to reduce
working
drag down to the point where there is sufficient power to control the
helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must
be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked out in
coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment. Gear that is
difficult to set on course properly, does not follow a course
accurately,
is quirky about what condition it will work at all, suffer minor
breakdowns, etc etc, will be more aggravation & potential hazard than
it's
worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In iOT%g.4206$%T3.1576@trndny03 "NE Sailboat" writes:

Lauri ,,, I just checked.. in all the postings about this subject except
where I responded to a personal attack by one poster who questioned my right
to own a cruising sailboat because I thought spending $3k on a wind vane was
not a wise investment .......

I never used, nor did I write, nor post the word "cheap"

Check the postings...

Some one here were asking for a poor mans... you may check your postings
yourself.

I have not said anything about what you should do with your money or
take any opinion if you should own a boat or not.

In your original poist, that I commented, you did not tell us, that you
did not mind if the thing did not work.

I still am entitled to my opinion that it does not make sense to buy or
make a windvane that has very limited use.

If someone is happy with his steering system that works if the
conditions are right, you may follow his advice.

I am sorry to pay some attention to your enquiry.

- Lauri Tarkkonen