In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............. then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.


==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

NE Sailboat wrote:
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Slocum had no self steering. He'd balance the boat out and she'd self
steer ok once so balanced.

Beats me why you are making yourself crazy here. Many have told you that
we tried and it didn't work. Lauri did try and it worked so that means
it doesn't work for all boats and I'll tell you it won't work nearly as
well as a tiller master or vane.

How many replies saying we tried and it didn't work will it take?

In ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

Then you use it mainly in nice and easy conditions.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

If you reaad Joshua Slocums book about his circumnavigation he just tied
the tiller down. He said Spray would keep it's course for days.

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

I believe that if you look around you will find some stores that sell
various components for shelfs and storage systems and tarpaulin
supports, that have tubes and different kind of angled and straight
joining elements, so you can build anything you want.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

There are some laws in physics about the energy, there are systems that
use the power created by the wane to steer the boat, but the wane is
then a small sail. Look more carefully to the system Sir Francis
Chichester used on his journeys.

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.

It is hard to make any realistic proposals without knowing more about
your boat. On the wind it should be easy just by using a shockcord or a
piece of rope, on a reach or a run it is more complicated. The
electronic tiller pilots are just done for this purpose and even the
small ones will do on nice conditions and then they do not draw too much
energy to ruin your batteries.

- Lauri Tarkkonen



==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:12:10 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Their routes were carefully chosen to be dead down wind or nearly so.
You can do that if you are going around the world, much harder
Portland, ME to Portsmouth, NH.

They would typically use a double head sail rig: Two jibs wung-out on
opposite sides, each with its own pole. The jib sheet on each side
would be led aft to a turning block, and then tied to the tiller. As
the boat would begin to head up too much in one direction or the
other, jib sheet tension would increase on one side and decrease on
the other, thus pulling the tiller in the correct direction to head
down wind again.


Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

Yes. They could go downwind for days and weeks at a time with little
or no adjustment.

In article ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02, says...
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

The Spray had several advantages that you might lack when it comes
to setting up the boat to self-steer:

1. A full keel to make the boat more stable in holding a course.
2. A yawl rig.

The yawl (or a ketch) rig makes it easier to balance the sails for
limited self steering.

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

I was able to keep my Islander 24 (full keel sloop) on course for
15 to 20 minutes in light seas and moderate winds by doing the
following:

1. Trim the sails for a moderate amount of weather helm
2. Attach a bungee cord from the tiller to the weather
cockpit coaming.
3 run the main sheet through a block on the leeward cockpit
coaming and to a jam cleat on the tiller. (4-part tackle
on the mainsheet)
3. Adjust tension on the bungee cord until it pulled hard
enough to overcome the weather helm and mainsheet pull.

If the boat fell off to leeward, the extra strain on the
mainsheet overcame the bungee and pulled the tiller to leeward.

If the boat pointed too high, reduced tension on the main
sheet allowed the bungee to pull the helm to weather.

This system worked only over a narrow range of courses and
wind speeds. I could go below for a few minutes if the
wind was somewhere between 30 degrees off the bow to
about 20 degrees aft of the beam. With some watching
and tweaking, it could get me time to eat lunch and
read a guide book or charts for a while.

I would never trust it with the wind further aft for fear
of an unintentional jibe.

I did try one of the simply plywood vanes with lines to
the tiller for a while. It never worked very well except
under optimum conditions. In light winds, there
was just too little energy to pull the tiller lines.

I never did take that boat very far offshore, and traffic
in San Francisco Bay wasn't very amenable to an
untended helm in any case, so the bungee/tiller/sheet
arrangement served for head calls and snacks.

If the winds were light and aft of the beam, heaving to
was the alternative.


SNIP

Mark Borgerson

The technique that Slocum used downwind was to sheet the main out as one
normally would, but the jib, w/ a club foot I believe, was sheeted in tight.
When the main caused Spray to head up, the jib would force her head back
down. Helm was probably lashed.
I suspect that sheet to tiller requires so much trial and effort that one
turns to other means. But as in many things, if there are no other options,
one would be more determined to make the solution at hand work.

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02...
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system.
Not for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along
the coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a
s...t, eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for
boss to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then ..............................
??????????????????? another hour of self steering is called for.


==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.


If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In DSK writes:

"NE Sailboat" writes:
I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.


If $3k seems like an impossible dream, then perhaps you
could never really afford a cruising boat anyway.


I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.


It certainly would be. Ya just gotta know how!


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.


It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.

Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is
related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-).

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.


Exactly. The geometry of these must be very cleverly worked
out in coordination with the boat's steering characteristics.

The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous
adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in
different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.


Or know how to make his own.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.


It's easy enough to go astray with top quality equipment.
Gear that is difficult to set on course properly, does not
follow a course accurately, is quirky about what condition
it will work at all, suffer minor breakdowns, etc etc, will
be more aggravation & potential hazard than it's worth.

This something I try to say, if you want a windvane, get a proper one,
if you want something to carry your boat while you are in the loo, a
tiller pilot is doing a decent job, and it doing it reasonably cheap,

I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a
temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am
going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

It need not be very expensive though (in terms of what boat
stuff costs, anyway). The main expense would be getting the
frame strong & rigid enough, and after that, providing low
friction bearings to reduce working drag down to the point
where there is sufficient power to control the helm.


Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
Do the low friction bearings come cheap? I thougt that here the price is
related the other way around, the more friction the cheaper. :-).


Well, sure. All the way down to a rock, which is max
friction but free

The first couple of cheapo rigs I tried had too much
friction. Then I just used a bicycle hub... lasted only a
couple weeks in the salt water, but if you buy a cheap
2nd-hand bike (or steal one) it comes with a spare.



The geometry is worked out and with the tiller you have a continuous
adjustment, because you can attach the line pulling the tiller in
different postiions of the tiller, giving you control of the lever arm.


Right, but unless your tiller in infinitely long, the system
has to generate enough force to move it against weather helm
(up to a point).

There is a clever windvane rig I saw some time ago that used
a tiller pilot for an actuator, and would follow the wind or
the compass depending on which you chose.


I have a good windvane, but while motoring and if I want just a
temporary relief from the helm, I use the tillerpilot. If I know I am
going to sail for the next few hour or more, I rig the windvane.


One of the issues with using a windvane on some boats is
that they generate apparent wind, and can wander all over
the place as the accelerate & decelerate. I heard a story
about a fellow who fitted one to a reasonably fast cruising
cat, and with every gust the boat would accelerate & bear
away, until suddenly it stalled and would almost come to a
stop, and refuse to resume course.

Tiller pilots don't do that, although they do have some
other annoying shortcomings

DSK