In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth" writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them, it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info.

Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using
tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone
who can work with the tubing etc.

I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not
sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about
how they operate has been fun.

Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it.

If not in the library, Barnes and Noble.

The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most
Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel.
While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with
Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough?

What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as
steel?

Thanks for the info ..

==============

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth"
writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them,
it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

In sTPWg.6144$K11.5935@trndny07 "Benning Wentworth" writes:

Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info.

Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using
tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone
who can work with the tubing etc.

There are many books written on windvanes. Anyway I suggest you read
Peter Foerthmans book Self steering under sail. Another is Gerard
Dijkstra Self-steering for Yachts, but it is quite old, year 1979.

I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not
sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about
how they operate has been fun.

A good windvane is not cheap. By the way, if you count every bolt and
washer the Windpilot Pacific has about 100 pieces. I know a sailor, who
said that the price is ridiculous, he can make one cheaper any day. As I
showed him the Windpilot manua and he asked some quotations from
potential makers he knew (they owed him a fawour), all them told him,
that if the price quotation is right, he should take it.

If you try to make one, you should be very carefull to look at the
various pieces and their strenght. Some are under more stress and some
are not as hardly pressed. Foerthmans books has some interesting
comparisions of Aries, Monitor and Windpilot.

The book can be loaded for free: http://www.windpilot.com/

Then there is quite a bit discussion of the bearings. Here delrin vs.
ball or needle bearings is the question. The problem with ball bearings
is, that the salt water will have the last word. Delrin is cheaper and
if the tolerances are right, it will last for ever. Here the weight is
given to the tolerances. If they are not right, you will have problems,
later on, perhaps when you are in the middle of pacific. Some of the
windvanes are not very welt built.

Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it.

What book are you referring to?

If not in the library, Barnes and Noble.

The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most
Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel.
While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with
Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough?

Aries and Windpilot are built in aluminium, Monitor, Fleming and many
others are built in stainles steel. Windpilot did it earlier in
stainless steel, but whent back to aluminium. He is using high grade
salt water corrosion resistant aluminium. On acruising boat about 40-50
lbs is not a big issue. Mine is on a 40 feetboat and even though this a
a firly light displacement boat, there is not any noticeable difference
in the sailing characteristics if the windvane is with me or not.

Most cruising boats have water and fuel tanks with more than 500 lbs of
fluid. how many cruisesr move their cloths, meatbals and books when
their fuel or watertank is half empty?

What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as
steel?

When you said something about affording one, I thought that the cost was
an issue. If you want a light one (but not very resistant to dents),
you use carbon fibre. Aluminium is strong enough if it is properly
dimensioned, but the welding needs a professional, but you can make the
joints with different kind of elements, you can buy for pulpits and
other things.

Thanks for the info ..

You are wellcome.


- Lauri Tarkkonen
==============

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth"
writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them,
it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.