In "Gordon" writes:

You're partial to Windpilot.

I made some five years of research before I bought my windvane,
initially I was interested in Aries and Monitor, but found out that
Windpilot is (at least min my case) the better choice.

Any interest (moneywise) in that company?

This is insulting. The only interest I have in the company, that I have
bought one of their pilots.

How would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle
of the stern?

If you bother to check out their web-side you will find out that they
have a multitude of bracket arrangements, allowing for canoe sterns,
outside hanging rudders, so you can use your imagination in applying
them.

Beside studying some five years the available windvanes, I have been
following (with lesser intensity) the development of the field since the
late seventies and can say, that the big difference between say Aries,
Monitor and Windpilot is, that the maker of Aries lost faith in the
windvane and the development was stopped, Monitor picked the idea and
made it in stainles steel, but Peter Foerthman has made three different
generations of windvanes, starting from new when he had learned enough
of the previous models.

I have been in Cowes and met the makers of Aries and installed it in a
friends boat, I have met the maker of Aries (by the way he is Swedish,
and I cruise in the waters where he started sailing, so we have had long
discussions about the windvanes during while we met), I have discussed
with the developer of Windpilot many times, so I have some perspective
of the situation and the gear. One sick feature here is, that all the
wendors badmouth the competition and it seems that all of them are
scared of Windpilot. The tone of your mail suggest me, that you have
some interest in some of the companies.

By the way, read Foerthmans book, it is free in the net. I dare to
promise you, that after reading it, you have to admit that he knows his
stuff. Of course I do not expect you to admit it in public.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Gordon
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

In Wayne.B writes:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:06:46 -0700, "Gordon"
wrote:

How
would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle of the
stern?

Not too many off shore cruising boats have that issue. Use a tiller
pilot instead.

If he has the problem, he expects everybody to buy a windvane
accomodating his problem.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth" writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them, it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

In .com " writes:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In .com " writes:
...
Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I agree with you and I want to make it clear that the "benefits" and
"costs" I listed were in relation to my current boat which is a
moderatly quick and light multihull. I think that the percentage of
light fast boats in the "serious" cruising fleet here in the Pacific is
growing quickly but as you rightly point out a significant majority of
the boats out here are well suited to wind-vane steering. Long range
cruisers in small boats (say less than 65 feet) that can use wind vane
steering probably ought to use it and will probably love it.

...
II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

Here in the States you can get a pretty nice gyro assised AP unit for
about half the price of quality vane set-up. My B&G system cost me
about the same as a vane but has a lot more functionality. YMMV.

Looks like the price difference is not as much as you wanted to point
out. By the way, I have had so many failures with the B&G system, that I
am happy that it does not steer my boat.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

Here I disagree. I've delivered boats in "cruise" mode and then sailed
them in "race" mode and the differences are astounding. Race mode
isn't just faster, it more comfortable if slowed to the same speed as
cruise mode, too. I grant you that this may be a hard sell here in
rbc, but weight in the ends of boats is very bad. If you put 20 kg on
the stearn of most 40 ft boats the stearn will sink a cm or two. This
doens't seem signifcant. Typically the owner will just move a bit of
junk foreward to bring the boat on to her lines. The pitching moment
has been increased by the 20 kg times the square of it's distance from
the center of pitching and has also been increased by moving the other
stuff to re-trim the boat. At this point the amout of time it takes
for the boat to respond to a wave has been increased noticably. At
least noticably to those of us who sail upwind in winds of force 6 and
greater and have been spoiled by boats that do this well...

I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern.
...

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

I've watched 5 "classes" come through the Pacific milk run and vane
failure is pretty common, but you don't need to find an EE to fix it...



Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

Not really. A well designed rudder will tend to keep steering loads
light at the quadrant or tiller even at high speeds which is all the AP
will feel.

I would not recommend windvanes with their own steering rudders, as the
boats own rudder is superior to that and the idea of having the rudder
of the windpilot as an emergency back up, is only sales propaganda. In
most cases where you loose your rudder you will loose the windvane
rudder as well.

...

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

Sorry, I listed looks in both categories. The OP says he like them so
they would be a benefit for him.

No reason to apologice, I think you may have any opinion about the looks
and you can change them at your whim.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

...

-- Tom.

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
....
I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern.

I would and I consider myself a cruiser.

-- Tom.

In .com " writes:

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
...
I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern.

I would and I consider myself a cruiser.

-- Tom.

And how many besides you? I know that in racing half a boatlenght at the
rounding mark will give you and advantage and perhaps win you a race,
but when you are sailing alone, you can not measure or regognize the
difference. Of course you can believe it and belief moves mountains as
they say.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info.

Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using
tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone
who can work with the tubing etc.

I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not
sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about
how they operate has been fun.

Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it.

If not in the library, Barnes and Noble.

The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most
Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel.
While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with
Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough?

What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as
steel?

Thanks for the info ..

==============

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth"
writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them,
it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

In sTPWg.6144$K11.5935@trndny07 "Benning Wentworth" writes:

Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info.

Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using
tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone
who can work with the tubing etc.

There are many books written on windvanes. Anyway I suggest you read
Peter Foerthmans book Self steering under sail. Another is Gerard
Dijkstra Self-steering for Yachts, but it is quite old, year 1979.

I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not
sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about
how they operate has been fun.

A good windvane is not cheap. By the way, if you count every bolt and
washer the Windpilot Pacific has about 100 pieces. I know a sailor, who
said that the price is ridiculous, he can make one cheaper any day. As I
showed him the Windpilot manua and he asked some quotations from
potential makers he knew (they owed him a fawour), all them told him,
that if the price quotation is right, he should take it.

If you try to make one, you should be very carefull to look at the
various pieces and their strenght. Some are under more stress and some
are not as hardly pressed. Foerthmans books has some interesting
comparisions of Aries, Monitor and Windpilot.

The book can be loaded for free: http://www.windpilot.com/

Then there is quite a bit discussion of the bearings. Here delrin vs.
ball or needle bearings is the question. The problem with ball bearings
is, that the salt water will have the last word. Delrin is cheaper and
if the tolerances are right, it will last for ever. Here the weight is
given to the tolerances. If they are not right, you will have problems,
later on, perhaps when you are in the middle of pacific. Some of the
windvanes are not very welt built.

Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it.

What book are you referring to?

If not in the library, Barnes and Noble.

The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most
Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel.
While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with
Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough?

Aries and Windpilot are built in aluminium, Monitor, Fleming and many
others are built in stainles steel. Windpilot did it earlier in
stainless steel, but whent back to aluminium. He is using high grade
salt water corrosion resistant aluminium. On acruising boat about 40-50
lbs is not a big issue. Mine is on a 40 feetboat and even though this a
a firly light displacement boat, there is not any noticeable difference
in the sailing characteristics if the windvane is with me or not.

Most cruising boats have water and fuel tanks with more than 500 lbs of
fluid. how many cruisesr move their cloths, meatbals and books when
their fuel or watertank is half empty?

What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as
steel?

When you said something about affording one, I thought that the cost was
an issue. If you want a light one (but not very resistant to dents),
you use carbon fibre. Aluminium is strong enough if it is properly
dimensioned, but the welding needs a professional, but you can make the
joints with different kind of elements, you can buy for pulpits and
other things.

Thanks for the info ..

You are wellcome.


- Lauri Tarkkonen
==============

"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth"
writes:

Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,,

Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them,
it
didn't seem as if there was much to them.

Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price ..

thanks,

Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I
agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I
come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear
to me in Travemuende.

If you live in USA then you could contact their US office:

Windsteering Systems
Windpilot
Bandwirkerstraße 39-41
D 22041 Hamburg Germany

tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44
fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15

www.windpilot.com

email:
US office

Doro & Greg Kruegermann
2226 Maurice Ave.
La Crescenta CA 91214 USA

tel: + 1 818 541 9321


tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT

fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616

email:

I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web
page of Windpilot.

I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand
made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one
are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages
accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about
it, based on my own experience.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


-------------
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In .com
" writes:

I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has
carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that
the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits
on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on
this for my boat:

Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to
bring some other angles into this.

I. Benefits:
1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail.

If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving
the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap
tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of
rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single
speed.

2) simple can be fixed in remote locals.

Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus
more reliable.

3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like
RADAR.
4) silent.
5) amusing.
6) looks salty.

II. Costs:
1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home
built.

Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the
price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots.

2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available
payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and
seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get
lighter and faster.

Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I
would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can
not see or feel the difference in pitching.

3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity
increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too.

Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of
cruising boats.

4) Does not function in calms.

I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in
calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the
boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot.

5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches
wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats.

Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats.

6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common.

Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper
windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot.

Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater
failure rates.

The same applies to electronic gear.

7) Increased dock fees based on LOA.

Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be
inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering
rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking
much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.)

8) Complicates davit arrangements

Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind.

9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse.

Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when
manouvering.

10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult.

Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot
Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull
it up by a piece of string.

11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt.

I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a
compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the
smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum
windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of
this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course
accurate enough for DR.

12) Look industrial.

You may keep your opinion on the looks.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

-- Tom.

I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern.

I would and I consider myself a cruiser.

And how many besides you? ...

Well, I know quite a few cruisers and delivery skippers who always make
the effort to tune and trim a boat before going on a voyage. I also
know folks who are happy that the sea will "autostow" their gear for
them and don't give any thought to trim at all. How many cruisers are
there in the world in the first category? I don't know. Filtering
through just cruising people I know I'd say maybe 25% of the total and
near 100% of the pro and semi-pro sailors. Will cruisers notice the
difference between a well trimmed boat a poorly trimed one? Some will.
For instance, my girl friend and I recently set sail from New Zealand
bound for Honolulu. Two fully crewed boats run by owners, more in the
"autostow" camp than the careful stow camp, set out on the same route
over a day ahead of us. We overtook both boats just over 72 hours out
and we all pretty quickly ran into gale force head winds caused by a
stalled complex low trapped on a very intense high. I slowed my boat
down to 4-6 knots to make the ride tolerable and continued beating
along the track freeing myself from the crush zone in just over a week.
The other two boats were unable to make good any ground to windward,
both took damage, and when the winds finally relented both were forced
to divert to make repairs an let off crew. One of the two finally made
it to Honolulu nearly two months after we arrived the other never got
here. I am familiar with both boats and I am sure that the reason that
they were stopped by those conditions was because they had paid very
little attention to setting their boats up for efficient sailing. I
suspect that damage that they took was increased because their poor
trim made their boats work harder against the sea than they needed to.
I could list other stories, like my friends who took off from Tonga
headed for Samoa but had to give up and go to Fiji after two weeks
because the couldn't go upwind into the trades and my friends that left
Honolulu bound for the mainland only to return because they couldn't
make way into the trades... In the later case, just a bit of rig
tuning and moving an anchor and it's rode off the bow got them back out
there and off to where they wanted to go.

Now, I don't want to make a judgement on the "correctness" of the two
schools, and I'm not even sure that there are two distinct schools but
suspect a normal curve. I cruise to have fun. My experience is that
the "autostow" folks tend to have a lot of fun and have great stories
to tell at the bar, too. But I do think that it there are times when a
cruiser's life is noticablely better when sailing on a well trimmed
boat.

-- Tom.

In .com " writes:

I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern.

I would and I consider myself a cruiser.

And how many besides you? ...

Well, I know quite a few cruisers and delivery skippers who always make
the effort to tune and trim a boat before going on a voyage. I also
know folks who are happy that the sea will "autostow" their gear for
them and don't give any thought to trim at all. How many cruisers are
there in the world in the first category? I don't know. Filtering
through just cruising people I know I'd say maybe 25% of the total and
near 100% of the pro and semi-pro sailors. Will cruisers notice the
difference between a well trimmed boat a poorly trimed one? Some will.
For instance, my girl friend and I recently set sail from New Zealand
bound for Honolulu. Two fully crewed boats run by owners, more in the
"autostow" camp than the careful stow camp, set out on the same route
over a day ahead of us. We overtook both boats just over 72 hours out
and we all pretty quickly ran into gale force head winds caused by a
stalled complex low trapped on a very intense high. I slowed my boat
down to 4-6 knots to make the ride tolerable and continued beating
along the track freeing myself from the crush zone in just over a week.
The other two boats were unable to make good any ground to windward,
both took damage, and when the winds finally relented both were forced
to divert to make repairs an let off crew. One of the two finally made
it to Honolulu nearly two months after we arrived the other never got
here. I am familiar with both boats and I am sure that the reason that
they were stopped by those conditions was because they had paid very
little attention to setting their boats up for efficient sailing. I
suspect that damage that they took was increased because their poor
trim made their boats work harder against the sea than they needed to.
I could list other stories, like my friends who took off from Tonga
headed for Samoa but had to give up and go to Fiji after two weeks
because the couldn't go upwind into the trades and my friends that left
Honolulu bound for the mainland only to return because they couldn't
make way into the trades... In the later case, just a bit of rig
tuning and moving an anchor and it's rode off the bow got them back out
there and off to where they wanted to go.

Now, I don't want to make a judgement on the "correctness" of the two
schools, and I'm not even sure that there are two distinct schools but
suspect a normal curve. I cruise to have fun. My experience is that
the "autostow" folks tend to have a lot of fun and have great stories
to tell at the bar, too. But I do think that it there are times when a
cruiser's life is noticablely better when sailing on a well trimmed
boat.

If you try to tell me that the difference between death and life is the
44 pounds of a windvane installed in tha rear, I have to tell you that I
rather take the boat with the proper windvane than the one without.

If the less than 50 pound weight is bothering you soo much you have to
move your gear everytime you spend some water or pi in the septic tank.

- Lauri Tarkkonen