I've seen and practiced this a few times with my students, but I was
wondering if someone has a reference to the procedure on the web?

The basic difference between the standard figure 8 (or quick turn) and the
modified version is that instead of immediately going on a beam reach, you
immediately go on a broad reach, then tack and head back to the MOB on a
close reach. The advantage seems to be that it's a more direct approach with
fewer points of sail to negotiate with an inexperienced crew. The slight
disadvantage is that you have less time to get it together, although you
could continue on the broad reach for a bit longer. We were very successful
using this method by taking the tack at about 3 boat lengths from the MOB on
the broad reach. That's not very far IMHO.

Clearly, if you have experienced crew, the condition warrants it, or there
are other factors, a host of other methods are available (e.g., LifeSling,
quick stop, while motoring). It also seems to me that this might be a safer
technique for ocean recoveries as well, rather than jibing (with the
LifeSling). You could still deploy the LS, but not jibe.

Comments?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:31:34 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I've seen and practiced this a few times with my students, but I was
wondering if someone has a reference to the procedure on the web?

The basic difference between the standard figure 8 (or quick turn) and the
modified version is that instead of immediately going on a beam reach, you
immediately go on a broad reach, then tack and head back to the MOB on a
close reach. The advantage seems to be that it's a more direct approach with
fewer points of sail to negotiate with an inexperienced crew. The slight
disadvantage is that you have less time to get it together, although you
could continue on the broad reach for a bit longer. We were very successful
using this method by taking the tack at about 3 boat lengths from the MOB on
the broad reach. That's not very far IMHO.

Clearly, if you have experienced crew, the condition warrants it, or there
are other factors, a host of other methods are available (e.g., LifeSling,
quick stop, while motoring). It also seems to me that this might be a safer
technique for ocean recoveries as well, rather than jibing (with the
LifeSling). You could still deploy the LS, but not jibe.

Comments?

Have you tried the Heave-to, Sail-to, Heave-to method?

I know of two versions:

1) As soon as the MOB occurs, heave-to instantly and, with the sails
still sheeted in, simply sail in circles around the MOB until you can
heave-to and recover.

2) Heave to and then sail downwind with the sails still sheeted in
until the MOB is off the quarter. Complete the gybe and head back to
the MOB on a close reach or close hauled. Depending on the wind
strength, leave about two - three boat lengths between yourself and
the MOB. When the MOB is off the quarter, heave to and work your way
to the MOB using a shroud as an aiming point.

In both methods:
- The sails remain sheeted in; the is no need to make sail
adjustments.
- You end up hove-to with the MOB on the leeward side.

Advantages:
-Can be done by one person.
-The boat is always in control.
-Having the MOB to leeward means a shorter distance to the water.
-With the sails sheeted in, there are no flying clews and sheets to
injure crew.
-If you miss, you can always keep sailing around the MOB.
-The MOB is always in view

When I teach CYA courses I must use the fiqure 8. I teach it and then
show the heave-to method. I will give your approach a try, the next
time I am on a sailboat. (My next couple of courses are on power
boats.)

Thanks for sharing.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Instructor Evaluator Offshore
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of heaving
to, due to current issues.

Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case, the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well, but we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough to
see the MOB.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:31:34 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I've seen and practiced this a few times with my students, but I was
wondering if someone has a reference to the procedure on the web?

The basic difference between the standard figure 8 (or quick turn) and the
modified version is that instead of immediately going on a beam reach, you
immediately go on a broad reach, then tack and head back to the MOB on a
close reach. The advantage seems to be that it's a more direct approach
with
fewer points of sail to negotiate with an inexperienced crew. The slight
disadvantage is that you have less time to get it together, although you
could continue on the broad reach for a bit longer. We were very
successful
using this method by taking the tack at about 3 boat lengths from the MOB
on
the broad reach. That's not very far IMHO.

Clearly, if you have experienced crew, the condition warrants it, or there
are other factors, a host of other methods are available (e.g., LifeSling,
quick stop, while motoring). It also seems to me that this might be a
safer
technique for ocean recoveries as well, rather than jibing (with the
LifeSling). You could still deploy the LS, but not jibe.

Comments?

Have you tried the Heave-to, Sail-to, Heave-to method?

I know of two versions:

1) As soon as the MOB occurs, heave-to instantly and, with the sails
still sheeted in, simply sail in circles around the MOB until you can
heave-to and recover.

2) Heave to and then sail downwind with the sails still sheeted in
until the MOB is off the quarter. Complete the gybe and head back to
the MOB on a close reach or close hauled. Depending on the wind
strength, leave about two - three boat lengths between yourself and
the MOB. When the MOB is off the quarter, heave to and work your way
to the MOB using a shroud as an aiming point.

In both methods:
- The sails remain sheeted in; the is no need to make sail
adjustments.
- You end up hove-to with the MOB on the leeward side.

Advantages:
-Can be done by one person.
-The boat is always in control.
-Having the MOB to leeward means a shorter distance to the water.
-With the sails sheeted in, there are no flying clews and sheets to
injure crew.
-If you miss, you can always keep sailing around the MOB.
-The MOB is always in view

When I teach CYA courses I must use the fiqure 8. I teach it and then
show the heave-to method. I will give your approach a try, the next
time I am on a sailboat. (My next couple of courses are on power
boats.)

Thanks for sharing.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Instructor Evaluator Offshore
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:07:21 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

I agree. With a lifesling this works really well. Yes, the main must
be under control on the gybe. Since this is used from a close reach
or close hauled, that is usually not an issue. From a beam reach or
broad reach, we use an upwind MOB that ends with a heave-to.


What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of heaving
to, due to current issues.

I find that most fin keel boats will maintain some headway when hove
-to. Current has not presented any issues, and we sail in areas with
serious cuurent problems. What current issues have you encountered?


Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

I taught this approach returning from Honolulu when I was a watch
captain on a Vic-Maui return. The skipper had used other approaches.
After the heave was used (with a lifesling) that became the standard.


We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case, the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well, but we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough to
see the MOB.

I am a huge believer in prevention. My crews are required to use
tethers and strobes when offshore and at night. No one allowed out of
the companionway without being hooked in. I have used light sticks at
night under sail and under power. Strobes are easier to see, so I
attach one to a MOB pole (Dan buoy) for practice. In case someone
does go over, our life ring has a self-lighting strobe attached.

Jack

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:07:21 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective
than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading
and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under
control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

I agree. With a lifesling this works really well. Yes, the main must
be under control on the gybe. Since this is used from a close reach
or close hauled, that is usually not an issue. From a beam reach or
broad reach, we use an upwind MOB that ends with a heave-to.

We've found that unless you really trim for close haul, main all in, things
have a tendency to break. We try not to practice in wind over 25kts, but we
were out last Saturday, and it was blowing 30. Too high to be safe with the
boat, so we gave up pretty quickly. The wind machine on the SF bay kicks in
after about 3pm.

What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of heaving
to, due to current issues.

I find that most fin keel boats will maintain some headway when hove
-to. Current has not presented any issues, and we sail in areas with
serious cuurent problems. What current issues have you encountered?

The currents in the bay can be quite strong, but the real issue is room and
traffic combined with current. We had a real MOB near the Gate, and the
skipper tried heaving to. It didn't work. Part of the problem was distance
to one of the bridge stantions, the other 6 foot waves. This made it very
difficult to get to the MOB, although losing sight of him wasn't an issue.
He finally had to use a combination of sail and outboard to recover him.


Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm
curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

I taught this approach returning from Honolulu when I was a watch
captain on a Vic-Maui return. The skipper had used other approaches.
After the heave was used (with a lifesling) that became the standard.


We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case, the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well, but
we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough
to
see the MOB.

I am a huge believer in prevention. My crews are required to use
tethers and strobes when offshore and at night. No one allowed out of
the companionway without being hooked in. I have used light sticks at
night under sail and under power. Strobes are easier to see, so I
attach one to a MOB pole (Dan buoy) for practice. In case someone
does go over, our life ring has a self-lighting strobe attached.

Yeah, same here. I require the same when offshore at night, and tethers
during the day if conditions warrant it. Not like the last time I was out
there, however:

http://www.sailnow.photosite.com/out-the-gate6-25-2006/

The swells were at least 1 foot. :-) Very uncommon. Two of the crew took
anti-nausia stuff and all they wanted to do was sleep it off.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:07:21 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective
than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading
and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under
control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

I agree. With a lifesling this works really well. Yes, the main must
be under control on the gybe. Since this is used from a close reach
or close hauled, that is usually not an issue. From a beam reach or
broad reach, we use an upwind MOB that ends with a heave-to.


What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of heaving
to, due to current issues.

I find that most fin keel boats will maintain some headway when hove
-to. Current has not presented any issues, and we sail in areas with
serious cuurent problems. What current issues have you encountered?


Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm
curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

I taught this approach returning from Honolulu when I was a watch
captain on a Vic-Maui return. The skipper had used other approaches.
After the heave was used (with a lifesling) that became the standard.


We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case, the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well, but
we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough
to
see the MOB.

I am a huge believer in prevention. My crews are required to use
tethers and strobes when offshore and at night. No one allowed out of
the companionway without being hooked in. I have used light sticks at
night under sail and under power. Strobes are easier to see, so I
attach one to a MOB pole (Dan buoy) for practice. In case someone
does go over, our life ring has a self-lighting strobe attached.

Jack

Jack,

Are you part of the group that does charter bookings? I've got my charter
plans set for January, but I've always wanted to sail up north of here.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:15:04 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



Jack,

Are you part of the group that does charter bookings? I've got my charter
plans set for January, but I've always wanted to sail up north of here.


Our company is partnered with Island Cruising in Sidney and Comox BC.
We can make bookings or you could contact them directly on their web
site: http://www.islandcruising.com/

Feel free to say Jack sent you. ;-)

This area has the most spectacular topography I have seen. I just
completed a two week circumnavigation of Vancouver Island with 6
students: whales, porpoise, eagles, bears. It was great.

Jack

Capt. JG wrote:
"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:07:21 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:


Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective
than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading
and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under
control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

I agree. With a lifesling this works really well. Yes, the main must
be under control on the gybe. Since this is used from a close reach
or close hauled, that is usually not an issue. From a beam reach or
broad reach, we use an upwind MOB that ends with a heave-to.


We've found that unless you really trim for close haul, main all in, things
have a tendency to break. We try not to practice in wind over 25kts, but we
were out last Saturday, and it was blowing 30. Too high to be safe with the
boat, so we gave up pretty quickly. The wind machine on the SF bay kicks in
after about 3pm.


What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of heaving
to, due to current issues.

I find that most fin keel boats will maintain some headway when hove
-to. Current has not presented any issues, and we sail in areas with
serious cuurent problems. What current issues have you encountered?


The currents in the bay can be quite strong, but the real issue is room and
traffic combined with current. We had a real MOB near the Gate, and the
skipper tried heaving to. It didn't work. Part of the problem was distance
to one of the bridge stantions, the other 6 foot waves. This made it very
difficult to get to the MOB, although losing sight of him wasn't an issue.
He finally had to use a combination of sail and outboard to recover him.


Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm
curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

I taught this approach returning from Honolulu when I was a watch
captain on a Vic-Maui return. The skipper had used other approaches.
After the heave was used (with a lifesling) that became the standard.


We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case, the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well, but
we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough
to
see the MOB.

I am a huge believer in prevention. My crews are required to use
tethers and strobes when offshore and at night. No one allowed out of
the companionway without being hooked in. I have used light sticks at
night under sail and under power. Strobes are easier to see, so I
attach one to a MOB pole (Dan buoy) for practice. In case someone
does go over, our life ring has a self-lighting strobe attached.


Yeah, same here. I require the same when offshore at night, and tethers
during the day if conditions warrant it. Not like the last time I was out
there, however:

http://www.sailnow.photosite.com/out-the-gate6-25-2006/

The swells were at least 1 foot. :-) Very uncommon. Two of the crew took
anti-nausia stuff and all they wanted to do was sleep it off.



One foot swells? If that's all you get, you're lucky.

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Jack Dale" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:07:21 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:


Jack,

Thanks, we've all tried heaving-to and cicling. It's used with the
lifesling, but using it with the lifesling is IMHO a lot more effective
than
the one you describe. Yours has a lot of disadvantages (although the
advantages you cite can be advantages, depending on your initial heading
and
the quality of your crew) since you must get the main totally under
control
before you jibe. If not, you'll do damage and put people on the boat at
risk.

I agree. With a lifesling this works really well. Yes, the main must
be under control on the gybe. Since this is used from a close reach
or close hauled, that is usually not an issue. From a beam reach or
broad reach, we use an upwind MOB that ends with a heave-to.


We've found that unless you really trim for close haul, main all in,
things have a tendency to break. We try not to practice in wind over
25kts, but we were out last Saturday, and it was blowing 30. Too high to
be safe with the boat, so we gave up pretty quickly. The wind machine on
the SF bay kicks in after about 3pm.


What you propose is fine if you're on the ocean, when getting out of
sight
of the MOB is an issue. We had very poor results with any kind of
heaving
to, due to current issues.

I find that most fin keel boats will maintain some headway when hove
-to. Current has not presented any issues, and we sail in areas with
serious cuurent problems. What current issues have you encountered?


The currents in the bay can be quite strong, but the real issue is room
and traffic combined with current. We had a real MOB near the Gate, and
the skipper tried heaving to. It didn't work. Part of the problem was
distance to one of the bridge stantions, the other 6 foot waves. This
made it very difficult to get to the MOB, although losing sight of him
wasn't an issue. He finally had to use a combination of sail and outboard
to recover him.


Do you teach this method during the offshore cruises? Actually, I'm
curious
if any one teaches MOBs in offshore conditions? Does anyone try teaching
MOBs at night? Now that's a blast.

I taught this approach returning from Honolulu when I was a watch
captain on a Vic-Maui return. The skipper had used other approaches.
After the heave was used (with a lifesling) that became the standard.


We tried a couple at night to simulate the loosing-sight-of-the-person
issue. Attached a light stick to the vest of our dummy. In that case,
the
lifesling technique (not deploying it of course), worked pretty well,
but we
had to sail quite a large circle, since it was hard for people to know
exactly when I would deploy the dummy. Even with the light, it was tough
to
see the MOB.

I am a huge believer in prevention. My crews are required to use
tethers and strobes when offshore and at night. No one allowed out of
the companionway without being hooked in. I have used light sticks at
night under sail and under power. Strobes are easier to see, so I
attach one to a MOB pole (Dan buoy) for practice. In case someone
does go over, our life ring has a self-lighting strobe attached.


Yeah, same here. I require the same when offshore at night, and tethers
during the day if conditions warrant it. Not like the last time I was out
there, however:

http://www.sailnow.photosite.com/out-the-gate6-25-2006/

The swells were at least 1 foot. :-) Very uncommon. Two of the crew took
anti-nausia stuff and all they wanted to do was sleep it off.



One foot swells? If that's all you get, you're lucky.

I know. I've been there many times. :-) Of course, I was exaggerating. They
were more like 1/2' swells. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com