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New Jersey operator licensing
Interesting thread on the Wooden Boat Magazine forum about New Jersey
being one of the first states to establish licensing for recreational boat operators. I haven't tried to parse it to carefully (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) but it sounds like it could apply to non residents or someone passing through (slowly). Has anyone here been tracking this? NJ boat dealers must be having cows and kittens all at the same time. As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
Reading more closely, it appears that you have to be able to present
written proof of having taken a safe boating course somewhere just to pass through NJ. I guess my 45 year safe boating course wouldn't count because I didn't get a certificate. I'm glad I don't plan to go to NJ. The marina operators must love this. I'm just picking out of the WBM postings. Anybody actually looked into this? -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
Let me see if I have this right ;;; you think the government should require
us to get a license to sail our boats. The same government that can't control the borders, that allows illegal tresspassing into our county by people from some **** ass crap hole like Mexico. That government is now going to tell us how to sail our boats! F..k this ,,,, New Jersey is a ********. A corrupt ********. Anyone who thinks that sailors need licenses it NUTS! F'king NUTS. You need to go back up in that airplane. This time bring some oxygen with you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Interesting thread on the Wooden Boat Magazine forum about New Jersey being one of the first states to establish licensing for recreational boat operators. I haven't tried to parse it to carefully (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) but it sounds like it could apply to non residents or someone passing through (slowly). Has anyone here been tracking this? NJ boat dealers must be having cows and kittens all at the same time. As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
Reading more closely, it appears that you have to be able to present written proof of having taken a safe boating course somewhere just to pass through NJ. I guess my 45 year safe boating course wouldn't count because I didn't get a certificate. I'm glad I don't plan to go to NJ. The marina operators must love this. I'm just picking out of the WBM postings. Anybody actually looked into this? Here it's a National Program. Could stand to be enhanced. http://www.theoperatorcard.ca/ |
New Jersey operator licensing
"Jasper Windvane" wrote in message
news:V_YXf.3014$aW5.2591@trndny07... Let me see if I have this right ;;; you think the government should require us to get a license to sail our boats. ...... Anyone who thinks that sailors need licenses it NUTS! F'king NUTS. You need to go back up in that airplane. This time bring some oxygen with you. Read the man's post: Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. Where do you see he advocates licensing??? Give it a rest. -- L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
... (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) ... Can't think of any reason you'd get invited. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.comcast.net |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote: .... As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. .... Your premise is wrong. Boating is far easier to do safely than flying. There are far more boaters than flyers and they have far fewer serious accidents. In terms of accidents per person mile I'm sure that walking on stairs is more dangerous than boating... Should we require stair user licences? I can't see where the government has a compelling interest here... -- Tom. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I spent one of the nicest years of
my life in NJ. I just don't have any boating plans for south of Cape Cod. My interest is to the north and east. -- Roger Long "Armond Perretta" wrote in message . .. Roger Long wrote: ... (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) ... Can't think of any reason you'd get invited. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.comcast.net |
New Jersey operator licensing
" wrote in
ps.com: I can't see where the government has a compelling interest here... Same as always, the incessant collection of MONEY, first, and PERSONAL DATA, second. They want to know who you are, where you are and what you're doing at all times..... |
New Jersey operator licensing
Well folks, I broke down with filter problems at Long Beach Island YC
and they looked after me like a long lost brother. At my old YC we would do anything for a fellow sailor and those members did the same for me. Fugettaboutit.NJ rocks. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
wrote Your premise is wrong. Boating is far easier to do safely than flying. .... The boating I was doing last summer, essentially single handing a 32 foot sailboat around a busy commercial harbor, ... offered for more opportunities to hurt or kill someone than .. flying ... in good weather in a simple airplane). ... No, it didn't. If you'd had a fit or a heart attack or gone blind while handling your boat you might have done a little property damage but would have stood a good chance of getting medical attention and living and it's unlikely that anyone else would have been seriously endangered. A disabled pilot can not be evacuated from an airborne plane and the plane has a great deal of potential energy (height and fuel) and it is certain to impact the earth causing significant damage to itself and endangering anyone in the area. -- Tom. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long writes:
As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. On the other hand, with this course, in Florida at least, my 11-year-old kid can run 100s of horsepower of powerboat around where he pleases, solo. And 9.999 horsepower and 16 feet without it. |
New Jersey operator licensing
wrote in message ps.com... Roger Long wrote: ... As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. Your premise is wrong. Boating is far easier to do safely than flying. Exactly. Consider the docking manouevre; off centre at 3kts is very different from being off centre at 100kts. Consider the effects of bad weather against fuel planning; running out of fuel because you couldn't get into a port is not a consideration of a boat. Consider incapacitated crew . . . and so on. Back to Roger's point. European practice on licencing is interesting. Great Britain probably has the most challenging sailing conditions in Europe, and has no governmental requirement for licencing or insuring leisure sailors. Nor do vessels used solely for leisure have to be registered. Some marinas insist on vessels having third party insurance, and some charterers want to see competence certificates. These are commercial arrangements only. Over the rest of Europe and in the Mediterranean, certificates of competence *and* third party insurance are governmental requirements for anyone in charge of any vessel, with some exceptions in some countries for small dinghies. These countries have better weather factors, weaker tides (if any), fewer people on the water, in fact, fewer reasons overall for needing licencing (with the exception of controlling traffic on some inland waterways, which are pretty crowded). However, most of these countries had a bureaucratic infrastructure designed to handle commercial traffic, and automatically applied commercial controls to leisure sailing, which was a trivial activity immediately post war (unlike Britain). Of course, once bureaucrats have a task, they're reluctant to face redundancy, preferring instead to argue the need for increased control . . . My views? The most serious and frequent leisure accidents arise from small high speed vessels. I don't mind if people wish to risk injuring themselves, but third parties need to be protected. Governmental intervention is not effective unless it is policed, and licencing does not prevent road accidents. I'd like to go the insurance route. Any vessel with an energy content equivalent to 10kts on 16ft should be third party insured. Probably best implemented by saying 'anything that can do more than 10kts, or is longer than 16' is to carry third party insurance.' That may require boat registration if the insurance is attached to the vessel, and if the insurance is attached to the driver, insurance companies would probably discount insurance to those with suitable certificates. Policing? Random checks at launching points. Impound vessels not covered by insurance. Got that off my chest, I feel better now. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas |
New Jersey operator licensing
You didn't answer my question. Are you a pilot or just spouting?
I wasn't talking about incapacitation anyway. You are right on that point. I would sure rather have an incapacitating heart attack in a boat than an airplane. I'd rather have a mild one in the plane because I would be on the ground next to an ambulance in 10 minutes. In the plane, I'm talking to a guy constantly who is looking at the radar and advising my of the location of any traffic within about 10 miles, even the stuff that I could never hit but which might just worry and distract me if I saw it. In the boat, I'm trying to be psychic and figure out by their behavior which of the yahoos in 30 plus foot fast power boats actually know the right of way rules and are sober enough see my boat. Meanwhile, I'm trying to navigate, keep kids fingers from running around winches and into blocks, heads below boom level, short tack and steer a quick turning boat with a big Genoa while avoiding lobster pots, navigation buoys, anchored fisherman, and other boats. Hey, flying on a nice day is a piece of cake. The spaces are big so things actually happen very slowly. I agree that it is less forgiving if you screw up but, if you are trying to get everyone home without even a band aid, commanding a sailboat can be way more hectic and a big responsibility. I came back to sailing after 15 years, 10 of which I just flew. Returning with the mindset you develop in aviation is very interesting. It trains you to look ahead and be safety conscious in a very proactive way. Part of it could be that I'm older and wiser with kids on board but sailing looks very different to me. When I started flying, everyone who had sailed with me said that there was no way they were ever getting in an airplane with me. I turned out to be a very conservative and proficient (at least at my level) pilot. I'm now a very different kind of sailor. Which doesn't mean I don't want to take my boat up to Newfoundland. Again, I'm curious. Are you a pilot? -- Roger Long wrote in message ups.com... Roger Long wrote: wrote Your premise is wrong. Boating is far easier to do safely than flying. ... The boating I was doing last summer, essentially single handing a 32 foot sailboat around a busy commercial harbor, ... offered for more opportunities to hurt or kill someone than .. flying ... in good weather in a simple airplane). ... No, it didn't. If you'd had a fit or a heart attack or gone blind while handling your boat you might have done a little property damage but would have stood a good chance of getting medical attention and living and it's unlikely that anyone else would have been seriously endangered. A disabled pilot can not be evacuated from an airborne plane and the plane has a great deal of potential energy (height and fuel) and it is certain to impact the earth causing significant damage to itself and endangering anyone in the area. -- Tom. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Every time I hear of a kid killed on a jet ski I think mandatory training is
a good idea. Just as disturbing is knowing that there are plenty of "Rodney Dangerfields" on the water (whenever I'm out there) exercising their right to display their wealth or credit line with acres of fiberglass and not a of clue of what they are doing. You can tell these guys as they are the ones blasting past small craft without even a glance back to see if the small craft survived the tsunami of a wake the huge POS threw. I'm split on the subject of an operators license, but leaning hard towards it as a good idea. If you've ever ran a boat in S Florida during a weekend and aren't one of those who can't seem to grasp a basic like passing to starboard, you might feel the same way. During a race put on by Cocoa Beach Yacht Club (Port Canaveral), a "captain" (of a big, expensive boat) hailed a Trident submarine that was in the approach channel and told them they would have to fall off as "We have the right of way as we are a sailboat under sail in a race". Hell, just teaching these boneheads the pecking order might keep them alive! Probably should be kept at the State level, and States should institute out of necessity and not as a revenue generator. MMC "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Interesting thread on the Wooden Boat Magazine forum about New Jersey being one of the first states to establish licensing for recreational boat operators. I haven't tried to parse it to carefully (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) but it sounds like it could apply to non residents or someone passing through (slowly). Has anyone here been tracking this? NJ boat dealers must be having cows and kittens all at the same time. As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
"Roger Long" wrote in message ... You didn't answer my question. Are you a pilot or just spouting? Come on, Roger. His arguments are valid whether he's a pilot or not. The consequences of error in aviation are so great that it is vital to ensure that errors are very rare, and recoverable. That means that all the people involved (not just the pilots) are well trained, and flying is only conducted in conditions safe for the particular aircraft, the particular pilot and the particular airfield. For the system to work, every participant has to understand sets of standard operating procedures, and sets of emergency procedures. Hence licences. Errors in sailing are much more frequent and have a much wider variety of sources, many due to working with high forces and crude machinery. But their consequences are relatively trivial. Yes, cuts and bruises, maybe lost fingers. Yes, collisions, with other craft and with the ground - but at such low energy levels that catastophic outcomes are very rare. Yes, man overboard - but at least that's only one of the crew gone, and with a good team, he's recoverable. In my opinion, most sailing risks arise from errors in operating the machinery, rather than the sailing skills. Licencing isn't likely to help this. First aid training might dig you out of the hole afterwards. Hey, flying on a nice day is a piece of cake. But commercial flying doesn't always throw you a nice day. Especially in northern latitudes. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I spent one of the nicest years of my life in NJ. I just don't have any boating plans for south of Cape Cod. My interest is to the north and east. And I have cruised Maine to my heart's content for over 20 years and never regretted a minute. It's just that I lose it when I suspect that this place, or _any_ place, is suffering abuse without sufficient investigation. Cheers. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.comcast.net |
New Jersey operator licensing
Richard J Kinch wrote in
: On the other hand, with this course, in Florida at least, my 11-year-old kid can run 100s of horsepower of powerboat around where he pleases, solo. And 9.999 horsepower and 16 feet without it. That, alone, is a great reason for licensing...controlling who can do what, safely.... It's terribly stupid that a blind man can, legally, drop by a brokerage and buy a 60' Hatteras FBMY with 1800HP diesels, get at the helm by himself and drive away from the dock....and not break any laws. All he needs is MONEY. One would hope, but not be certain, that any real licensing authority would notice that he was blind and refuse to give him a license to drive that Hat, at all. The Boat Lobby has kept testing and licensing away from boating for decades. Boats, believe it or not, are a LOT of impulse buying, impulse buying they would not do if they had to take a course and pass a test before being allowed to drive over the rest of us. Boat dealers must be really ****ed. I don't want your 11-year-old driving around the harbor in a CC with twin 250s, no matter how stupid you are to let him do it. His little CGAux safe boating course didn't tell him how to drive the boat, how to navigate, how to use the power to dock it. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
In the plane, I'm talking to a guy constantly who is looking at the radar and advising my of the location of any traffic within about 10 miles, even the stuff that I could never hit but which might just worry and distract me if I saw it. In the boat, I'm trying to be psychic and figure out by their behavior which of the yahoos in 30 plus foot fast power boats actually know the right of way rules and are sober enough see my boat. Meanwhile, I'm trying to navigate, keep kids fingers from running around winches and into blocks, heads below boom level, short tack and steer a quick turning boat with a big Genoa while avoiding lobster pots, navigation buoys, anchored fisherman, and other boats. Again, I'm curious. Are you a pilot? An interesting discussion Roger. I'm not a pilot. I always assumed that flying was more dangerous than sailing but I get your point. Flying really is quite safe. I think it would be interesting to see what the insurance folks think. How many folks are killed/injured and how many liability claims are made regarding boating compared to flying? The fact that flying is closely regulated is what makes it very safe. Boating, being very unregulated, is probably a bigger risk for insurers. It is probably the insurers who will ultimately drive licensing because eventually they won't insure unlicensed boaters. Gary |
New Jersey operator licensing
It's a lot more complex than that in the insurance aspects. I was
just forced out of flying primarily by the insurance situation. Here's a fix on the current situation: Cost to add boating endorsement to our catastrophic liability umbrella policy: $31 and a quick phone call. Cost to add the same for aviation: $675 and requirements for underlying insurance that no one in the real world could meet effectively insulating the umbrella carriers from aviation risks. This isn't so much a measure of actual risk but of tort jury behavior. Juries tend to think that flying is crazy so you are guilty before you leave the ground. Highly trained and careful pilot goes out and gets in over his head in unexpectedly bad weather when some otherwise minor problems distract him. Four people die. Guy with more bucks than brains goes out and buys too much powerboat and heads of with zero training and crashes it drunk. Four people die. Juries will hand out about ten times as much money in the first case. Insurance rates reflect this. The risk to insurers is measured by the $31 / $675 ratio above but that has little to do with the level of risk to the individuals in either a boat or an airplane. -- Roger Long "Gary" wrote in message news:p4aYf.216280$H%4.84486@pd7tw2no... Roger Long wrote: In the plane, I'm talking to a guy constantly who is looking at the radar and advising my of the location of any traffic within about 10 miles, even the stuff that I could never hit but which might just worry and distract me if I saw it. In the boat, I'm trying to be psychic and figure out by their behavior which of the yahoos in 30 plus foot fast power boats actually know the right of way rules and are sober enough see my boat. Meanwhile, I'm trying to navigate, keep kids fingers from running around winches and into blocks, heads below boom level, short tack and steer a quick turning boat with a big Genoa while avoiding lobster pots, navigation buoys, anchored fisherman, and other boats. Again, I'm curious. Are you a pilot? An interesting discussion Roger. I'm not a pilot. I always assumed that flying was more dangerous than sailing but I get your point. Flying really is quite safe. I think it would be interesting to see what the insurance folks think. How many folks are killed/injured and how many liability claims are made regarding boating compared to flying? The fact that flying is closely regulated is what makes it very safe. Boating, being very unregulated, is probably a bigger risk for insurers. It is probably the insurers who will ultimately drive licensing because eventually they won't insure unlicensed boaters. Gary |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
Jasper Windvane wrote: Let me see if I have this right ;;; you think the government should require us to get a license to sail our boats. The same government that can't control the borders, that allows illegal tresspassing into our county by people from some **** ass crap hole like Mexico. That government is now going to tell us how to sail our boats! F..k this ,,,, New Jersey is a ********. A corrupt ********. Anyone who thinks that sailors need licenses it NUTS! F'king NUTS. You need to go back up in that airplane. This time bring some oxygen with you. What is the downside of this? I'm all for it. (Well like you say, you don't know how effectively it can possibly be enforced, but the idea is still good.) Us PWC'ers have been the first segment of boating to be subject to mandatory education requirements over the last five or six years or so, we have been all for it from the beginning, and you should track the statistics about how boating and pwc accidents and injuries have declined in states that have instituted these kind of laws. Seems like a no-brainer to me that one should be trained and licensed to drive a boat just like for a car. Too easy for people to hop onto a boat a make trouble for themselves and others without any knowledge of the laws, safety procedures, anything. Less so for sailboats maybe because they require more skills, experience, and training just to operatie in the first place, but that doesn't mean they should be arbitrarily exempted - in fact, it seems to me that it would suggest that it's not really any additional burden for sailors because they're probably getting educated and trained before they hit the water anyway. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
I am not an advocate of
recreational boat licensing... I have however, encountered many people on the water (one which put a hole in my boat) who I wish had either been kept off or had their behavior modified by such a program. Sounds like a big contradiction to me there! I think mandatory training and certification (i.e. licensing) is the perfect solution for the problem you just agreed is so prevalent...idiots or ignorant boaters on the water, and the danger and damage they can cause themselves and others. I think if you examine accident and injury statistics in states that have already started with laws like these, you'd have to agree that it's already very beneficial, unless you're stuck on the personal inconvenience you'd suffer by "sitting through the course." Actually the courses in my experience are fairly fun and pleasant, and I would think absolutely everyone, no matter how experienced they are, could possibly learn something from them here and there richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger, I spent one of the nicest years of my life in NJ also... I think it
was a Friday night! PSSSSSSS ... where do you think the money for the license is going to go? For boating safety? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,,, right in some corrupt pocket. What are you thinking? Are you entirely crazy? "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I spent one of the nicest years of my life in NJ. I just don't have any boating plans for south of Cape Cod. My interest is to the north and east. -- Roger Long "Armond Perretta" wrote in message . .. Roger Long wrote: ... (can't think of any reason I would ever go to New Jersey, let alone stay there the triggering 90 days) ... Can't think of any reason you'd get invited. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.comcast.net |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
wrote
Sounds like a big contradiction to me there! Of course it's a big contradiction. It's the basic tension between freedom and order that society struggles with all the time. Licensing will come as much because large numbers of people behave irresponsibly as because the government is power hungry. -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
Roger Long wrote:
Licensing will come as much because large numbers of people behave irresponsibly as because the government is power hungry. This cynic agrees with you. That doesn't make it a good thing. At some point in the future, you will need a license to walk in the woods, dogs will be illegal, and the average person will be appalled at the primitive & barbaric notion that citizens were once upon a time allowed to own firearms. Sailing without a license??!? Ha! Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
New Jersey operator licensing
News F2,3,4,5,................... the last time I checked; Europe SUCKED!
Take a look at France ,,,,,,,,, lovely place ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, SUCKS! As for the rest of the "Continent" ................ why do you think the founding fathers wanted independence? Answer: Europe SUCKS! ===================== "News f2s" wrote in message ... wrote in message ps.com... Roger Long wrote: ... As a just (self) grounded private pilot, it does seem strange to go out and do something that involves just as much responsibility and requires just as much skill (at least to do safely) with out all the training and oversight involved in flying aircraft. Boat licensing is probably overdue but I still hate to see it coming up over the horizon. Your premise is wrong. Boating is far easier to do safely than flying. Exactly. Consider the docking manouevre; off centre at 3kts is very different from being off centre at 100kts. Consider the effects of bad weather against fuel planning; running out of fuel because you couldn't get into a port is not a consideration of a boat. Consider incapacitated crew . . . and so on. Back to Roger's point. European practice on licencing is interesting. Great Britain probably has the most challenging sailing conditions in Europe, and has no governmental requirement for licencing or insuring leisure sailors. Nor do vessels used solely for leisure have to be registered. Some marinas insist on vessels having third party insurance, and some charterers want to see competence certificates. These are commercial arrangements only. Over the rest of Europe and in the Mediterranean, certificates of competence *and* third party insurance are governmental requirements for anyone in charge of any vessel, with some exceptions in some countries for small dinghies. These countries have better weather factors, weaker tides (if any), fewer people on the water, in fact, fewer reasons overall for needing licencing (with the exception of controlling traffic on some inland waterways, which are pretty crowded). However, most of these countries had a bureaucratic infrastructure designed to handle commercial traffic, and automatically applied commercial controls to leisure sailing, which was a trivial activity immediately post war (unlike Britain). Of course, once bureaucrats have a task, they're reluctant to face redundancy, preferring instead to argue the need for increased control . . . My views? The most serious and frequent leisure accidents arise from small high speed vessels. I don't mind if people wish to risk injuring themselves, but third parties need to be protected. Governmental intervention is not effective unless it is policed, and licencing does not prevent road accidents. I'd like to go the insurance route. Any vessel with an energy content equivalent to 10kts on 16ft should be third party insured. Probably best implemented by saying 'anything that can do more than 10kts, or is longer than 16' is to carry third party insurance.' That may require boat registration if the insurance is attached to the vessel, and if the insurance is attached to the driver, insurance companies would probably discount insurance to those with suitable certificates. Policing? Random checks at launching points. Impound vessels not covered by insurance. Got that off my chest, I feel better now. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas |
New Jersey operator licensing
DSK wrote:
wrote: What is the downside of this? I'm all for it. Well, sure. You're already stuck having to take classs and get a license. .... Us PWC'ers have been the first segment of boating to be subject to mandatory education requirements over the last five or six years or so, we have been all for it from the beginning, Not all PWCers are "all for it" Well, the pwc'ing COMMUNITY at large is all for it and has been ever since I"ve been a part of that community for that last nine years or so. PWC rights advocacy groups and IMO all of us more responsible, informed, thinking riders, have advocated and supported, mandatory education and certification, for ALL boaters as long as I've been involved, and it seems like an excellent idea to me. and there are still a lot of jetski drivers who operate their boats dangerously & offensively. Yes, and operators of other size and shape power boats too. That is why it seems look a great idea to try to guarantee that anyone driving one has at least been instructed in the basics. Some do it even after taking classes & getting licensed, seems like they consider it part of the fun. The reason why PWC's were the first to be regulated & to have a license required was due to the large number of incidents wherein PWC drivers injured others. Injuring yourself is not the state's business IMHO. I don't follow your thinking at all. Power boaters with bigger boats than pwc's can certainly do lots of damage to others and the properties of others as well as to themselves, and often do. (And to their families and passengers.) .... it seems to me that it would suggest that it's not really any additional burden for sailors because they're probably getting educated and trained before they hit the water anyway. Yeah, let's just go ahead and have the gov't burden them with classes & licensing req'ments etc etc, after all they can't possibly harm anybody else at 5 knots. I don't really see what the big burden is. The class is 8 hours and free, here in New York State anyway. And you don't want people to get the idea that it's a free country. I don't know that the "it's a free country" platitude dissuades me from thinking that this is a good idea, especially when you look at accident and injury statistics in states that have done it already. I guess you're not in favor of automobile licensing either? After all, I suppose, it's anyone's free choice to get onto a crowded road they know is populated by tons of dangerous uneucated maniacs.....every man for himself, why would the government have any interest in stepping on my freedom by insisting that I learn to drive and get tested before I get behind the wheel? I guess I must be some kind of communist. Sounds to me like some people just think they're too good to take the course and just don't want to be bothered...tough. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
"Dave" wrote
Well spoke. Roger's totally full of **** on this one. Your opinion. People have, and have, worse. Actually, I was trying to find out whether he has the perspective of actually having learned to fly a plane for some reasons valid to the discussion. Flying is surprisingly easy. Walking the length of a foot wide board is quite easy. Put the board between two tall buildings and it suddenly becomes something different. Then add a couple other tasks to do as you walk across. Most aviation accidents are ultimately pilot error but the things that often kill pilots are not things that you can train for. There is a saying that applies to this conversation, "You can't teach judgement." Over and over in aviation accident accounts you see experienced and proficient pilots killing themselves doing bone head things that they had probably sagely counseled younger pilots not to do many times. I'm sure the same think happens on the water although aviation licensing keeps most (but far from all) of the total yahoo's out of the air. The one thing that does make me a bit sympathetic to basic training requirements for boating is the right of way rules. It would be nice if everyone out there knew them and I wouldn't have had my one boating accident (hole on the port side). -- Roger Long |
New Jersey operator licensing
And even more importantly, have the knowledge and/or common sense to make
decisions when things get "different". MMC I don't want your 11-year-old driving around the harbor in a CC with twin 250s, no matter how stupid you are to let him do it. His little CGAux safe boating course didn't tell him how to drive the boat, how to navigate, how to use the power to dock it. |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:29:01 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote: PSSSSSSS ... where do you think the money for the license is going to go? For boating safety? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,,, right in some corrupt pocket. What are you thinking? Are you entirely crazy? You are right on the money with that one Tom. |
New Jersey operator licensing
On 3 Apr 2006 14:22:02 -0500, Dave wrote:
But the number of boaters in miniscule in comparison. So instead of licensing everybody, the State should keep a record of the small number of boaters whose boating privileges have been revoked. The CG and the water cops could quickly verify that info by radio when they board a vessel for violations. Where does it say that government has the authority to revoke your right to boating ? By advocating a licensing program you would creat that authority. Be careful what you ask for. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Wayne.B wrote: On 3 Apr 2006 14:22:02 -0500, Dave wrote: But the number of boaters in miniscule in comparison. So instead of licensing everybody, the State should keep a record of the small number of boaters whose boating privileges have been revoked. The CG and the water cops could quickly verify that info by radio when they board a vessel for violations. Where does it say that government has the authority to revoke your right to boating ? I don't get this overheated knee-jerk right-wing reaction to this issue based simply on stating the fact that the government would be involved. Hey it's not like they are going to "revoke your right to boating" just because they don't like the way you like. Anybody willing to put in the time to learn the basics required for safety of themselves and everyone else out there, and able to demonstrate that they were paying at least minimal attention, is in. It sounds almost like you don't want any government at all, or not one with the right to regulate anything. Does it make me some kind of left-wing loony to think it's a good idea to try to verify that people have had some training in how to read navaids, f'rinstance, before they hit the water? By advocating a licensing program you would creat that authority. Be careful what you ask for. Seems to me it's very analogous to licensing automobile use. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
On 3 Apr 2006 14:35:01 -0500, Dave wrote:
Once the camel gets its nose into the tent it is very difficult to get it out. Right idea, but wrong implementation, Wayne. The saying is that once the camel gets its nose under the tent it's hard to keep the rest of him from following. Thank you for clarifying that important detail... :-) |
New Jersey operator licensing
Well, lots of people who've been boating already are "too good for the
course" in that sense. But obviously you, like me, didn't feel so far above it as to refuse to comply, but rather grinned and bore it, sat down for the little eight-hour course, and MAYBE just maybe still learned a little something from someone (the Coast Guard Auxiliary guys who give the courses seem outstanding to me, and certainly give the impression that they feel THEY THEMSELVES can always learn something new.) When I (a lowly pwc'er who's been a safe, responsible, educated operator for, well, at least most of my nine years riding) took the safety course a couple years back, I knew most of the material in it, but even if I knew all of it, I would have had no objection to participating, sacrificing 8 hours of my time, to support what is so clearly to me, an excellent idea in terms of making the water safer for ALL of us out there. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
You seem to be saying that the law should be administered on a
case-by-case wherein we decide in the case of every individual boater whether or not they have the pre-existing skills and experience to just get out of having the take the class. Seems ridiculous to me and I just don't see what the big deal is. You say the 8-hour course is "a burden on my time that I do not have now," but then describe yourself (stating the obvious) as a recreational sailor, so this would be the equivalent of one good day on the water you might have to give up. I still don't think the burden is that onerous. Maybe you're just saying that there should be a distinction made between sailors and power-boaters. I don't know that I disagree vehemently with that, I think the licensing is an excellent idea for pwc'ers and all other power-boaters, and the proof is in the pudding in the accident statistics states where these laws have already been booked. Lives have been saved, the water is safer overall in those places, I think it's well worth it. But in the spirit of taking one for the team, I still don't think it's terrible for the same rule to be in effect for ALL boaters, but maybe I would agree that blow-boats are in a different category; I don't think certification should be required for, say, kayakers. richforman richforman |
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