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New Jersey operator licensing
DSK wrote:
Not at all, just enforce the existing laws. Serial DUI is a felony in many jurisdictions. wrote: I see an inconsistency in your argument. Not really. ... If you believe that government should institute and enforce laws against drunk boating, then you grant that they should have a role and be able to make restrictions. You concede that government should be able to step in and prevent a drunk from getting on the water (and lock him up to make sure of it). This isn't qualitatively different, it seems to me, from reuiring that in order to have the privilege of operating a power vehicle on the water (I already conceded that it might be different for sailboats, I'm not sure), one must not only stay sober, but also be able to prove that they've had basic safety instructions. Well, let's see... are these two things the same? 1- a person has proven that they have bad judgement and their actions are hazardous to others, so action is taken to prevent their exercise of bad judgement in the future (and dissuade others from making the same poor choices). 2- It is assumed that all people will make poor choices and furthermore will not take the initiative to learn how to make good choices. Umm yeah, those two are the same or even close??!? From my perspective, they're similar in that they're both attempts to reduce the number of ignorant, dangerous idiots on the waterways. Also, getting behind the wheel of a power boat without first being instructed in the basic rules of the road and safety procedures, shows bad judgment right up front. I guess I'm a loony leftist So far I have not figured you for either a "rightist" or "leftist" but you may label yourself whatever you like. Well you keep bringing up the fact that you don't want government involved in making this or that decision, so you seem to be arguing the issue from the right, implying, it seemed to me, that anyone who favors the certification requirements is in favor of big, intrusive government. .... in that I think it's okay for the government to be involved in deciding who can own guns, who can drive cars and boats, and potentially restrict some people from doing those things and others. Sure. But here's the problem... in this country it is assumed that gov't's authority is derived from the people. WE are the ultimate authority. Of course, that sounds like a non-sequitor to me. Any boating-related law or any other law should come about as result of the standard constitutionally defined process, with the participation of the public through their elected representatives. These types of laws I personally support. Secondly, there are things the gov't can not do. For example, the government could not stop people from drinking alcohol. They tried and spent millions and all it did was increase organized crime, and feed corruption. In fact people drank more than ever! True, I agree wholeheartedly, the government can't and shouldn't legislate against vice. Stop people from drinking - no. Try their best to stop people from drinking and boating - yes. It occurs to me that there is probably a percentage of would-be new boaters who may not even be aware that boating under the influence is illegal, but they would learn it by taking the basic boating safety course. I'd rather have them learn this that way than by ignorantly going out and doing it, getting caught, probably doing a lot of damage, and being arrested. Yup, I'd rather just make them take the course first. I don't want to stop ANYBODY from boating. I just want to make sure that they know the basics first. Can the gov't stop murder? Speeding? Robbery? No. They can slow it down, and laws against those things should be vigorously enforced. Is dangerous boating already illegal? Yes. Are those laws being enforced? Not very effectively. I agree with all of the above. That's another position of generally all of us in the pwc'ing community by the way. Strict enforcement of existing marine laws is the best way to producing good on-water behavior, weeding out idiots and people who just don't care, reducing accidents and conflicts....better than arbitrary bans of any kind based on the size and shape of the hull of any particular sub-group of boats. So what is the logical argument for claiming that more laws & more gov't intervention, with no stronger attempt to actually enforce laws currently in place, will improve the situation? And furthermore, why pass laws that are punitive to a section of the boating public that IS NOT CAUSING ANY PROBLEMS AT ALL? Where's the punishment, and what "section of the boating public" do you mean? My position is that all power boaters should be required to learn the basics before they hit the water. Nothing punitive about it, and all segments of the boating public should be equally subjected to it so as not to discriminate unfairly against anyone. Sure, I wouldn't object to some kind of grandfather clause if that's what you mean - I don't wanna go overboard with it, as it were, but I think it'd be great if we could insure that a generation from now, everybody boating had to demonstrate the same very basic level of familiarity with the basics of safety and the law, as all car drivers do now. I DO however, see a slippery slope situation, wherein if you let environmentalists pan pwc's from any public waterways, they'll be coming after your bigger powerboat next! So? So nothing. You wouldn't care because you seem to have something against power boats in general. (Me I don't have anything against any kind of boater based on what kind of boat they have or what they do with it as long as they're having fun and being safe and reasonably sensible.) This has always been my personal position vis-a-vis pwc's. Personally I don't wanna ever see them banned from anywhere where other recreational power boats are allowed (because they're the same), but if someone who hates 'em and wants to ban 'em, wants to toss out all power boats too, then at least that's consistent within itself and not so arbitrary, and I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. Of course that won't ever happen because there are a lot more owners of bigger boats than pwc's, and those owners have a lot more money! Actually, it might be a good idea to ban pleasure powerboats altogether. It would save fuel and reduce our dependence on politically hazardous oil-exporting countries, and also delay our descent down the far side of the Hubbert Peak. It would probably be good for those things (although I don't know what the last thing refers to, maybe I should look it up), but now it sounds like you're much more interested in abridging and restricting people's freedoms than I (unless you're being totally sarcastic, but you sound sincere). Like I said, I don't want to stop anybody from boating as long as they just know what they're doing or know the very basics to start, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to require that they demonstrate that they do. Anyway now you're being really incosistent. You don't want government to be able to make sure that someone's taken an eight-hour boating safety class from those know-nothing nazis at the Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxiliary, to make the waterways a little safer for all your fellow boaters, but you would go along with banning all power boats from the waterways to conserve fuel. richforman DSK |
New Jersey operator licensing
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:27:56 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: There's a flap going on here in Maine over a number of folk killed by drivers with revoked licenses. The cops are sitting out there with cars hooked to computers that can identify the owners of cars and they still can't keep these people off the road. It isn't going to work on the water either. No one boats, or drives, from the big house. Lock'em up. |
New Jersey operator licensing
In article , DSK
wrote: prodigal1 wrote: You're missing the point entirely. Licensing has little to do with safety and everything to do with a chain of "accountability" in the event of an accident. It isn't about "corrupt politicians" out to get your money...good god what drivel -I know- you didn't write that. It's about the insurance companies! Who has to pay when someone gets injured/killed/sued. No license=No insurance=personal liability I'd agree that lack of personal responsibility is a big part of the problem... and requiring a license isn't going to restore that. Instead, let's just enforce existing laws to the full extent. Rule 1 has always been 'don't screw up.' That means, learn how before you start... pay attention to what you're doing... But we have several generations of Americans wandering around loose who genuinely expect the world to be a no-skill-required place, and "learning how" is an alien concept. For example, driving drunk... bad idea. But simply driving a car while intoxicated is not the problem, the problem is that drunks cause wrecks. So instead of setting the cops to chase drunks, have them & the courts maximally punish drunks who cause wrecks... along with every other driver who has a wreck too. And (here's the important part) publicize the results, so that everybody *knows* that if you have a wreck, drunk or not, it's your ass in a sling in a big way... no maybes, no excuses, no "we'll let you off this time because you're remorseful." That would focus the mind of every driver, drunk or sober, on driving carefully & defensively. I used to drive with a blood alcohol level way over .01 many years ago. It wasn't illegal then, the test was the ability to control the vehicle. Nowadays there's a BA level set because it's not subjective judgement by a PO and based on stats that measure levels of impaired ability with increase in BA. I used to drive more slowly & cautiously if I'd been drinking because I knew my reaction time was down. The only vehicle accidents I've ever had in over 30 years were when dead sober and not paying sufficient attention to what I was doing. And I can count them on the thumbs of both hands. So - I agree with you, Doug. The crime isn't driving with a BA over a certain level, it's doing that and causing an accident. I can't figure, given human stupidity, that laws will ever make a difference, tho, as the people most dangerous are those sure they'll never get caught. Here in Australia (NSW) they took licences off people and cancelled their vehicle registrations for various offences. All that happened was an increase in unlicensed & uninsured drivers/vehicles. Predictable. They need to confiscate the vehicles, then people may pay attention. Or at least if they didn't, they'd have to find a new vehicle to drive. PDW |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote: On 4 Apr 2006 13:48:18 -0700, said: That's another position of generally all of us in the pwc'ing community by the way. Can you please drop this "community" horse****? For some reason every mealy-mouthed unctuous weasel in the world seems to insist he's speaking for this or that "community." Have the balls to speak for yourself. There is a pwc community, and from what I hear and read communicating with fellow members of it every day for the last decade or so, the vast majority of people in it, and certainly the formal organization the represents it (AWA) support increased enformcement of marine laws, and requiring training and certification of all power boaters. Sorry to **** you off by saying so but it's true. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote:
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:23:44 -0400, prodigal1 said: so employing this logic, we don't need to license people to drive cars either, and then only apply controls to each individual after they have killed or maimed themselves and/or others or caused property damage? Had you read the earlier parts of the thread you would see the foolishness of this comment. Oh I see, _you're_ the only one who reads in here. I've pointed out a fairly gaping hole in your argument. Feel free to fill it in with something substantive when you can. Until then... sshhhh! Big people are talking in here. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote:
snip *plonk* -sound of arrogant worm being dropped into bozo-bin |
New Jersey operator licensing
Wow. The thread that won't die. Actually, it died a long time ago
and it's starting to smell like it. Give it up. -- Roger Long "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:54:28 -0400, prodigal1 said: -sound of arrogant worm Yes. How dare I have the gall to suggest you actually read something before engaging the mouth. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Mys Terry wrote:
On 5 Apr 2006 11:30:04 -0500, Dave wrote: On 5 Apr 2006 08:22:05 -0700, said: So indeed you had the ability to be exempted from the training requirement by demonstrating you already knew the basics! (Weren't put through the "burden" of having to take the course, you chose to yourself because it seemed like the less inconvenient of the options.) So I'm not sure what, if anything, you are complaining about at this point. I figure the opportunity costs to me of sitting unproductively through those 8 hours was in the thousands, as the costs of taking a day off to take the test would have been. Right, I get it exactly. You're not really that concerned with ideas about the extent to which government should rightfully regulate boating, except to the extent that it personally inconveniences you. The right solution I guess, according to you (this is what your post sounds like) would be for the government to break down the financial cost of "sitting unproductively through those 8 hours" on an individual case-by-case basis and if the figure is above a certain threshold, the person is exempt from the rule about having to demonstrate that they know boating safety basics. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
Peter Wiley wrote:
The only vehicle accidents I've ever had in over 30 years were when dead sober and not paying sufficient attention to what I was doing. And I can count them on the thumbs of both hands. When young I had a number of mishaps in cars, due to excesssive confidence & lack of respect for the consequences... like most young people.... So - I agree with you, Doug. The crime isn't driving with a BA over a certain level, it's doing that and causing an accident. I can't figure, given human stupidity, that laws will ever make a difference, tho, as the people most dangerous are those sure they'll never get caught. And that's the problem... the social engineers need to figure out how to instill the belief that they will be caught. That is the single best deterrent to misbehavior, much more effective than severe & harsh punishment *if* you get caught. Here in Australia (NSW) they took licences off people and cancelled their vehicle registrations for various offences. All that happened was an increase in unlicensed & uninsured drivers/vehicles. Predictable. They need to confiscate the vehicles, then people may pay attention. Or at least if they didn't, they'd have to find a new vehicle to drive. We do that here too, with unintended consequences. The confiscated cars were given to the schools to sell off, a nice idea in theory. However the cars cost more to store than they fetch on the market, and the schools are also embroiled in wrongful deprivement of property suits. A mess. DSK |
New Jersey operator licensing
Conneticut ,,, last time I checked Conneticut SUCKED! Taxes up the ass, a
governor a crook, the whole place a big pit. The state doesn't give a rat's ass about boating safety,, all it wants is more TAX MONEY. Conneticut ,, SUCKS! ============== "Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:36:50 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On 3 Apr 2006 14:22:02 -0500, Dave wrote: But the number of boaters in miniscule in comparison. So instead of licensing everybody, the State should keep a record of the small number of boaters whose boating privileges have been revoked. The CG and the water cops could quickly verify that info by radio when they board a vessel for violations. Where does it say that government has the authority to revoke your right to boating ? By advocating a licensing program you would creat that authority. Be careful what you ask for. In Connecticut, they are VERY careful to call it a "safe boating certificate", and stress that it is NOT a license. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote:
Why Doug, you're starting to sound positively right-wing. I have always been rather conservative on most issues. DSK |
New Jersey operator licensing
I have always been rather conservative on most issues.
Dave wrote: Hmm. With me, wisdom came only with experience. Actually worked for George McGovern in the NH primary. As opposed to Nixon? You were wise back then. "Conservative" (in the real sense) means having the good of the country as a whole in mind, rather than being a shrill & unreasoning partisan of the ideology du jour. DSK |
New Jersey operator licensing
That's where you're wrong, on all those points. You are really
ignorant. My four-stroke pwc is extremely quiet, as are all the new 4-strokes which is about I don't know, 90% of the market these days. EXTREMELY QUIET, among the quietest and CLEANEST-RUNNING boats being made, those are the FACTS. I know the difference and the truth because I rode the 2-strokes for a bunch of years and know all about the noise levels those used to make. On the 4-stroke my wife and I can talk to each other as we ride together without raising our voices, cruising at speed. The only sound you hear riding these boats is the splash of the water against the hull. There are NO EXHAUST FUMES coming from my 'ski, just admit that you have no idea what you are talking about (as far as NEW, CURRENT machines that have been the norm for the last five years). 4-stroke...do you get it? Doesn't burn oil? NO FUMES, NO BURNING OIL? Admit that you're WRONG, DON'T know what the F**CK you're talking about, and that your statements about MY riding and MY pwc and MY Firends and MY life are FALSE, IGNORANT, INACCURATE, INSULTING wihtout knowing ANYTHING about what happens when I go out riding my boat. I don't fly around quiet anchorages and neither do any of the other people I ride with. Like any responsible boater I slow down to idle in an anchorage or past a marina, or idle up to the beach to sit on blankets and have lunch with my wife, just like any other recreational boater would do. I never "run circles around anybody" because I have much better things to do , like all-day long-distance cruises that involve knowledge, smarts, research, preparation just like ANY BOATER needs, except most bigger-boaters do NOT go on the kind of long-distance adventuress that my pwc friends and I do every weekend. Let me know when you can go 130 miles on about 40 bucks' worth of gas and take advantage of it by going on long-distance explorations all the time.....then tell me how I'm not a real boater, not as good somehow as you you ****in' asshole, sorry for MY attitude but YOU started it with the insults and LIES about (by implication) myself, my wife, my children and many of my friends!!!!!! You are wrong, I should know what kind of attitudes I encounter on the water, on the docks, on the beaches, that of respect and camaraderie from all my fellow boaters with whom I share a love of the water, the outdoors, the sunshine, and BOATING, regardless of what size or shape boat somebody chooses to enjoy. I interact with fellow boaters every weekend day out there, eight months out of the year, how often do you get out and for how many hours?, and ONLY get pleasantness and the basic bond that all boaters share except around here on the newsgroup. People are impressed and surprised when they hear how far we've come from when we go (with my wife or friends) on long-distance overnight cruises and trips, and when they see how much storage and fuel-efficiency my boat offers, what can you say, of course they like it. When people see the mapping gps' mounted to our handlebars that we use to plan and navigate long-distance trips, or hear that my wife and I, say, have been on the 'ski all day and have ridden maybe 100 or 150 miles, and are none the worse for the wear and tear, they realize that their preconceptions about pwc's and what they're used for and who rides them, might be a little inaccurate. Of course to that they have to have an open enough mind to admit that they don't know everything and were wrong about some things. I know I'm blithering like an idiot, but damn it prodigal, you're wrong and I wish you'd admit it on thiese points: my boat isn't loud AT ALL, it's VERY QUIET compared to almost any other powerboat you could find it has no exhaust fumes I don't run circles I don't buzz boats or fly through anchorages ....and therefore this proves that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT. I'm a perfectly worthy, respectable member of the boating world, I have as much right to be on the water or in an anchorage or at a dock or right here in the newsgroup as you or anybody, as long as I obey the rules, operate safely, am courteous to my fellow boaters, etc., and I AM, and so is EVERY OTHER PWC ENTHUSIAST I KNOW and I KNOW A LOT OF 'EM, we are EVERY BIT AS MUCH BOATERS as ANYONE ELSE. Well, anyway I had a good start to my season, did you start yours yet?, last Sunday my friend and I left from Hempstead Harbor, took the Long Island Sound to the Harlem River, popped out on the Hudson, cruised along the West side of Manhattan then under the Verezanno, around Staten Island clockwise then finished a figure-eight by taking the East River back to Hells gate and back to our ramp, about 125 miles without fueling up (using about 18 gallons or regular 87 gas apiece), we saw a dolphin swimming in the Arthur Kill to my extreme surprise, and watched a huge crane the likes of which I hadn't seen before do routine dredging on a channel elsewhere in the waterway....anybody do anything like that on a bigger boat last weekend? ANyway, we interacted with plenty of people on other boats, at the ramps and docks during the day, and like I said (and you tried to lie away) didn't get any kind of negative anti-pwc prejudiced attitude from ANYBODY, that only happens RIGHT HERE from pompous blowhards like yourself. Our next ride planned is Easter weekend, an overnight run from Jones Beach to South Jersey, probably cruise at least to Atlantic City then back to Long Beach Island where we'll tying up and staying overnight and cruising back the next day. I have ridden pwc's to the Bahamas (that's right, TO the Bahamas and back); up and down the entire FLorida Keys from Ft. Lauderdale over a week; always going from Long Island to Block Island or Wethersfield, Ct, or Newport, RI for overnight trips; from Northport, LI to Albany and back in a day; I want to know, does any of this sound like it conforms to your prejudiced, stereotyped, outdated notions of pwc riding and what pwc riders do with their boats? Does it sound like I'll be busy flying through anchorages, spewing fumes or "doing circles," and if you can see that none of that is the case, then will you admit that you were wrong about me, and my boating lifestyle, apologize humbly to me and maybe think about updating some of your old-fashioned notions....or will you just dig in? to sum up: NOT LOUD NO FUMES NO CIRCLES NO FLYING AROUND ANCHORAGES GET ALONG FANTASTICALLY WITH ALL FELLOW BOATERS YOU'RE WRONG ON ALL COUNTS YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT ....AND YOU"RE OBNOXIOUS TO HAVE SAID THOSE THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE WITHOUT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT ME, BASED ON PREJUDICES RESTING SOLELY ON THE KIND OF BOAT I OWN. Sorry. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
GUYS you're wrong about me, you're claiming I said things which I never
did. I have said several times in this thread that I support experienced boaters (or anybody, I guess) being able to "test out" of the class requirement...so these last two posts about me or addressed to me are WRONG, I never said that people can't learn the basics without sitting in a classroom, or that people can take the initiative to learn things. I NEVER SAID "the govt. must rightfully to force everybody to sit in a classroom." NEver said it, never implied it, and I don't think that way. Got it, DSK?, your statements about me are innaccurate, incorrect and show (to use the old usenet saw) a lack of reading comprehension. All I said was the if somebody's learned it already, through experience or through their initiative (which in many cases would probably include taking a basics class anyway!) I don't mind the law asking them to demonstrate that by taking the cert test. Exactly like driving. The government does NOT say you have to take any particular education, YOU JUST HAVE TO PASS THE TEST to show that you know the basics, and I think power-boating should work the SAME WAY. Do you got it? richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
Wayne.B wrote:
On 5 Apr 2006 07:40:48 -0700, wrote: There is a pwc community Perhaps, but the vast majority of PeeWC riders have never heard of it, and are about as community spirited as the meatheads who drive around town in their cars with a pavement shaking stereo system playing rap music. I looked up the AWA on the web. There's virtually no mention of safety or enforcement on the site. In fact the only issue they mention is their strong opposition to the 45 mph speed limit bill in NH. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote: On 5 Apr 2006 11:34:09 -0700, said: The right solution I guess, according to you (this is what your post sounds like) would be for the government to break down the financial cost of "sitting unproductively through those 8 hours" on an individual case-by-case basis and if the figure is above a certain threshold, the person is exempt from the rule about having to demonstrate that they know boating safety basics. Sigh.... As I noted previously, you seem unwilling or unable to read or simply unable to comprehend. BTW, that "PLONK" notation is supposed to be implemented by creating a kill filter. Need some help with that? What Plonk notation are you referring to? I've never kf'd anybody nor needed to, nor used the word as shorthand for "I'm kf'ing you right now." richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Their web site is obviously pretty lame, I must admit I never looked at
it until just now (keep up with them through their magazine and by communicating with them and other members, and I'm well aware of what the organization's positions on these issues are). If you're at all interested you should call them and ask them their positions on safety, education, enforcement, and similar issues. Here's some pages and articles with some information on uses of pwc, who and what kind of folks are riding them, how they're used, what studies have learned about their environmental impact, what the AWA (American Watercraft Association) and PWIA (Personal Watercraft Industry Association's) positions and goals are, etc. Check it out if you're at all interested in becoming more informed about these, if you'd rather just stick to your preconceived, stereotyped, outdated notions of pwc's and their riders, don't bother. http://www.shawnalladio.com/pwc/pwcD...pwc_detail=205 http://www.ozpwc.com/ozpwc/thefacts.htm (By the way, this article is already way out of date, it is from 2000, similar studies conducted now would reveal that the pwc's are much cleaner-running, quieter, and have less environmental impact than they did at the time of the studies cited - these were before the advent of the 4-strokes which have taken over pretty much the whole market in the last five years) http://www.awahq.org/p/newsDetail.ph...D=80&flagger=2 http://www.pwctoday.com/archive/index.php/t-39869.html http://www.ohiodnr.com/watercraft/plan/ucw.htm http://www.pwia.org/issues/safety.html http://www.pwia.org/issues/pwcloanprogram.html http://www.laweekly.com/features/210/reborn-to-rescue/ (skip down to "There are many brave men and women...") http://forums.surfline.com/archive/i...p/t-20198.html http://www.boatbiscayne.com/about_pwia.html http://www.pwia.org/news2003/072303.html http://pwia.org/faqs/pw-qa.html http://pwia.org/news2006/031606.html "Perhaps no one has more of a vested interest in promoting responsible use than PWIA and its manufacturer members. The PWC industry is strongly interested in the safety of PWC users and of other people using the waterways of this country. It is the inappropriate use of PWC by uninformed or inconsiderate operators-not the vessels themselves-which can result in conflicts on the water. PWIA also believes boating education makes sense for all boaters, not just PWC operators. Because safety is of paramount importance, the PWC manufacturing industry has taken extraordinary measures to raise awareness about proper operation, behavior, courtesy and safety." (from the Ohio Department of Natural Resources' web site:) "The AWA Personal Watercraft Code of Ethics should be promoted in Ohio through boating education and partnerships with PWC dealers." Luckily the efforts of environmental extremist organizations (namely BlueWater Network) to ban pwc's from waterways as a stepping-stone to banning all motorized recreation, has been thwarted as results of environmental impact analyses have been slowly coming in over the last five years: The following chart details the current status of the rulemaking process in the affected parks, national seashores, etc. NATIONAL PARK SERVICE UNIT STATUS URL Amistad National Recreation Area (TX) OPEN TO PWC as of May 27, 2004 www.nps.gov/amis Assateague Island National Seashore (MD/VA) OPEN TO PWC as of June 30, 2003 www.nps.gov/asis Bighorn Canyon National Recreation Area (MT/WY) OPEN TO PWC as of June 1, 2005 www.nps.gov/bica Big Thicket National Preserve (TX) EA published July 24, 2002; rule in progress www.nps.gov/bith Cape Lookout National Seashore (NC) EA published January 24, 2005 www.nps.gov/calo Chickasaw National Recreation Area (OK) OPEN TO PWC as of September 2, 2004 www.nps.gov/chic Curecanti National Recreation Area (CO) EA published June 13, 2003; rule in progress www.nps.gov/cure Fire Island National Seashore (NY) OPEN TO PWC as of July 6, 2005 www.nps.gov/fiis Gateway National Recreation Area (NJ/NY) EA published May 13, 2003; rule in progress www.nps.gov/gate Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (AZ/UT) OPEN TO PWC as of May 1, 2003 www.nps.gov/glca Gulf Islands National Seashore (FL/MS) EA published April 19, 2004; rule in progress www.nps.gov/guis Lake Mead National Recreation Area (AZ/NV) OPEN TO PWC as of April 9, 2003 www.nps.gov/lame Lake Meredith National Recreation Area (TX) OPEN TO PWC as of May 27, 2004 www.nps.gov/lamr Lake Roosevelt National Recreation Area (WA) OPEN TO PWC as of June 25, 2004 www.nps.gov/laro Padre Island National Seashore (TX) EA in progress www.nps.gov/pais Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore (MI) OPEN TO PWC as of October 27, 2005 www.nps.gov/piro richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Right. BoatUS and the Ohio Deparment of Natural Resources are zealous
pro-pwc propogandists. The reports of pwc's being used in Katrina rescue operations and marine life rescues and other law enforcement and safety operations are made up, just like the so-called stories of moon landings. Your "observations" obviously supercede any facts or reports that suggest that your prejudices, preconceptions and stereotypes might not be up to date or fully accurate. The fact that four-strokes have replaced about 90% of 2-strokes in the new pwc market over the last five years resulting in some of the very cleanest-running, most fuel-efficient and very quietest power boats on the water today, is something I just made up, with no facts behind it to support it. Your "observations" tell you so and I don't blame you for refusing to consider that there might be more to the issue than you're aware of. The fact that the vast overwhelming majority of pwc's sold are three-seaters for use with their families is a lie. The idea that mandatory training requirements have decreased accident, injury and conflict statistics in all states that have instituted them is also fiction, to be ignored by you because of the wisdom and infallibility of your "observations." The fact that enviromental impact analyses have resulted in proposed pwc bans being rolled back and rejected is another fiction I made up. (Or is due to the influence of an incredibly powerful pwc industry lobby? Uh huh.) Your personal observations tell you all you need to know about the noise level, environmental impact, and pollution level of modern 4-stroke pwc's that have been increasingly the rule among new units sold since 2002. You should continue to make insulting pronouncements about thousands of your fellow boaters including myself, my wife, and many of my friends, without bothering to acquire any further information on the topic...based of course on your observations. Why can't you just admit that maybe your information is out of date and that you don't know everything, and that it's very likely that a lot of what you think you know could be very wrong? It's obvious that you don't care to be more informed on the matter, and that's certainly your right, but you should at least admit that your chosen ignorance and stubbornly clung-to beliefs, inform your opinion on the matter, rather than any actual curioisity, open-mindedness or knowledgeability on the topic. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote: On 6 Apr 2006 09:18:38 -0700, said: Why can't you just admit that maybe your information is out of date and that you don't know everything, and that it's very likely that a lot of what you think you know could be very wrong? Rich, one doesn't learn how PWC operators behave from a propaganda sheet. He learns it from being out a boat each weekend and observing them. Seems like a weak argument unless you can dispute any of my facts or sources. Just dismissing everything that doesn't support your "observations" as automatically being simply "propoganda" isn't very compelling. Once again (and you just keep ignoring me) - specifically - Is this article propoganda, or fiction? Is BoatUS an organization with a pro-PWC bias? http://www.shawnalladio.com/pwc/pwcD...pwc_detail=205 How about the "PWC operators" that your observations make you such an expert on....do those featured in the following article fit your preconceptions? (And it's from Surfer magazine, surfers not traditionally being generally much of a radically pro-PWC-biased contingency as far as I know.) http://surfermag.com/features/online...atrina-intrvu/ (part one) http://www.surfermag.com/features/on...sro-no-prttwo/ (part two) You still don't conceded it's possible that your "observations" don't really tell you the whole story or make you very knowledgeable about the pwc world in general? If you observed ME and all the people I ride with all the time, you'd be confronted with the realization that your preconceptions and prejudices are misinformed, outdated, based on a limited sample, and simply don't tell anywhere near the story. You'd respect and appreciate my behavior on the water, and it's not just mine, it's that of all the people I talk to and ride with all the time, the same as you would any courteous, experienced, responsible safe boater. But you just keep insisting that you're an expert and fact or evidence that challenges your firmly held views should just be dismissed. Never reconsider your views and just pretty much ignore and dismiss anything I have to say, simply because I own a pwc. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Mys Terry wrote:
You are genuinely claiming that one poster's personal and highly biased observations posted in usenet trump multiple references to well known organizations? WHAT! You're claiming that simple observation of fact is "biased?" I guess water doesn't really run downhill unless you can google up a few references... preferably well-known organizations, I'm sure.... DSK |
New Jersey operator licensing
So, I guess if we observed that you and your buddies don't
buzz anchored boats, jump wakes dangerously close to vessels underway, play chicken with swimmers, harrass sailboats, etc etc, then we'd just forget about every time we observed a larger number of jetskiiers doing those exact things? It would indicate that your prejudices and preconceptions about pwc'ers were not accurate, and that there's a lot that you don't know and would apparently surprise you to learn about pwc's and their owners. Of course it's not incumbent on you to become more informed about them. Actually, I'm sure there are a number of PWCers who use their boats decently and interact with other boaters just fine Well there you go, we're getting somewhere, this is the first time you've acknowledges this truth that I've been trying to point out - that your blanket condemning and insulting of all pwc riders including me, my wife, my children, and many of my friends (and your insulting us is why I'm so passionate about this) is unfair and innacurate. But there are a lot that don't; True; same goes for all segments of power boating, this is another of my main points, and the reason I favor mandatory training in safety basics. and frankly the image of blasting around the waterway not giving a damn is part of what sells PWCs in the first place. Well there you go talking about things you know nothing about again. Come on, you have to admit you really know nothing about why most of the people who buy pwc's, buy them. You're just projecting your prejudices and stereotypes into the heads of people you don't know much about. You should check out the marketing materials, that is, the ads in boating magazines for the last ten years or so, to see how they market the machines....mostly as family fun craft, with pictures of dads riding with their small children on board, obviously on vacation, the kids sitting in or jumping off the back swim platforms to go snorkeling, enjoying the sights of caribbean waters, or a couple riding off into the horizon....just like pretty much any other recreational pleasure boats in their ads. Read the reviews of pwc's in mainstream, non-pwc-oriented boating magazines like Boating. They talk about ride comfort, storage space, watersports ability, design features....pretty much just like they would with any other recreational power boat. And I, unlike you, know first-hand what I'm talking about. I've bought pwc's, I use them regularly, and talk to and ride with other people who do, every weekend, eight months a year. You should be humble enough to defer my word over your own guesses as to how they're sold, why they're bought, and how they're used. The fact is they're not only about the quiestest and cleanest-running power boat you can buy, but the most affordable, easiest/cheapest to store, trailer and maintain, most fuel-efficient, kids love them...THESE, DSK, are a much bigger part of what sells them than "the image of blasting around the waterway not giving a damn." Honestly and I know what I'm talking about. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to just admit that really, on this topic, you don't. richforman richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Sounds like you're twisting things around with a kind of word game
here. I don't know what your profession is but it seems to me that "observed evidence" is only convincing with reference to the specific event observed, and is not a (legal? if that's what you're getting at) basis for jumping to generalized conclusions about what always or usually happens. And to simply dismiss out of hand any source whose information contradicts your anecdotal and personal observations, is not a compelling argument technique. It sounds like circular logic to me - you won't accept any testimonial that counters your beliefs, because you automatically assume the source is biased propoganda. Makes it hard to convince you that there might be anything worth knowing that you don't already know. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Well your source for information is obviously way out of date because
SeaDoo hasn't made the GTX RFI in a few years. Here's Seadoo's marketing blurb for their current flagship model on the CURRENT web site: "Roughing it is relative on the GTX and GTX SC. Packed with two powerful engine options, luxury to spare and smooth maneuverability. A top-notch boat that takes riding to a new place. Like your favorite camping spot. Or a little island hopping." Here's their description of another model: "If the journey is the reward, you may never reach your destination. Thanks to the uncompromising luxury of the 2006 GTX Limited. With a 215 HP engine, and 18 features that make fully-loaded an understatement. Perfect for carving up some serious glass at dusk. A weekend out of town. Or a shopping spree in Venice." Here's how they want to sell you on their current entry level model: "We figure the best way to get you on the water is to design a PWC with technology, ergonomics and convenience you feel great about. At a price you still feel good about. So we totally redesigned our GTI recreation models. And it goes well beyond the brand new, 3-Star Certified 130 HP four-stroke Rotax engine. With 20 more horses than its closest rival for an extra jolt of top speed, acceleration and handling that could only come from a Sea-Doo watercraft. And a quiet efficiency that makes competitive models seem downright obnoxious. We went further. We rebuilt the entire hull. It's flatter and wider, for more stability. It's easier to board, thanks to a larger rear platform and reboarding ladder. In the highly unlikely event of a tip, it's easier than ever to pop it back up. And since where the water takes you sometimes depends on what you can take with you, there's the exclusive Sea-Doo removable waterproof 10.6-gallon storage bin. The Sea-Doo Learning Key is preprogrammed to limit RPMs, giving novices more control and confidence. Put simply, the design, technology, comfort and convenience packed into these watercraft are unrivaled by anything in their class. And you'll know it the minute you hop on an all-new GTI and take it for a spin. Kind of makes you want to redefine a little thing called value, doesn't it?" The web site blurb for Yamaha's flagship model on their web site reads: "The performance to get your family excited, the comfort to keep you relaxed." They want us to know this about the boat: "With its all-new ergonomically designed dash, the FX Cruiser High Output has an automotive-like feel in the way it keeps riders comfortable and invigorated at the same time. This WaveRunner offers a unique, Cruiser style of riding - a contoured Cruiser seat, adjustable raised handlebars and foot chocks create a three-point contact system that gives the driver support while reducing tension on the arms and legs. And because the passenger also has a supportive seat and handholds, the driver is never crowded. Power, performance and comfort - all rolled into one very full-featured flagship." For their VX110 Deluxe model, the headline blurb reads "Family weekends are even more valuable when they're affordable," there's a picture of a grinning couple riding one of the boats. Let's look at the marketing description for that watercraft on Yamaha's web site. Hmmm: "The VX110 Deluxe was designed to deliver fun and performance, while pairing Yamaha's unparalleled reliability with a stylish design. The VX110 Deluxe is longer than comparable models, providing a rider-forward design that not only accommodates a roomier, more comfortable seat, it allows for a larger rear platform. This makes reboarding easy and offers a great place to hang out and relax with the family." Wow, really aggressive and testosterone-fueled marketing slant. For their FX HO for '06 (I've got an '05, most versative and comfortable pwc I've ever owned, I use it primarily for ambitious long-distance cruises and overnight trips, and some of idle-speed sightseeing explorations of scenic shallow creeks): "The FX High Output doesn't just look like a sports car, it performs like one. Underneath its new, sleek aerodynamic surface lies the most powerful four-stroke engine in our arsenal - a High Output Yamaha Marine engine. Add to that an ultralight high-strength hull, a high-pressure pump, extraordinary handling and an exceptional power-to-weight ratio, and you've got an ultimate performance machine. So if you're looking for a high-performance WaveRunner that's quick, nimble and great for offshore riding, prepare yourself for the FX High Output." Nothing about attitude or leaving anybody in any wake. Wonder why I'm not getting the same results you got? Even their race model, the GP1300R, just goes this far: "Lots of watercraft that offer performance, but the GP1300R is the WaveRunner that blows right by them. With a technologically advanced, fuel-injected, 170-horsepower Yamaha Marine engine, the GP1300R offers enough power and control to make every ride exhilarating. Plus, with features like Quick Shift Trim System and adjustable sponsons, you can customize the handling to suit your individual preferences. If you want the WaveRunner with the best performance and highest top speed, the GP1300R is waiting." I don't know if powerful performance or exhiliration upset you...still a far cry from the lines you pulled out of I don't know where. (I know that advertising blurbs in recent magazines I"ve seen say stuff like this, one has a dad riding two kids through what looks lke canyons in Lake Powell or somewhere similar, the blurb mentions the fact that it's a vacation with screaming happy kids but no oversized rodents selling overpriced souvenirs...nothing like the ones you cite. Did you make them up? I know you didn't, you just used old, out of date ones to support your outdated perceptions.) Let me check Kawasaki's web site. Stx-15f, their current flagship mode: With its fuel-injected, four-stroke engine and racing-inspired hull, aggressive turning and high-speed stability are key performance attributes of the STX-15F. It's not only loaded with features, but the STX-15F has earned a coveted Three-Star Ultra-Low Emissions rating from the California Air Resources Board (CARB). That's what Kawasaki calls leading-edge technology. Dressed in new colors for 2006, it is available in Jet White / Kawasaki Lime Green, and Firecracker Red / Galaxy Silver. Available late 2005. stx-12f: "The STX-12F boasts a sporty design with its stylish deck and angular seat, offering a muscular look befitting a high-performance watercraft. The handlebars are located in a cab-forward position to provide plenty of room for the rider. Plus, abundant floor space provides room for the rider's feet. There are even footrests to help stabilize a rear-facing spotter when pulling a skier, wake boarder or tuber. The model that started Kawasaki's four-stroke watercraft revolution, also earned CARB's Three-Star Ultra-Low Emissions rating, a full five years prior to the mandated deadline. Dressed in new colors for 2006, it is available in Jet white / Candy Thunder Blue. Available late 2005." Once again, I'm looking for the words "attitude," "wake," "power trip" (although I don't really think there's anything that wrong with suggesting that the boats are fast and powerful; the emphasis in most cases seems to be, JUST LIKE I SAID, on features, comfort, family friendliness, reliability, clean-running engines, etc. Here's how Kawasaki describes their stand=up model: For riders who like to stand up in the breeze and lean into turns while accelerating over the water, the 800 SX-R is the ultimate stand-up Jet Ski watercraft. A descendant of the original 400cc model, this watercraft thrills riders with a 781cc two-stroke engine and the most power available in a production Kawasaki stand-up. Light and quick-handling, it's the favorite among hard-core watercraft enthusiasts and racers everywhere. Dressed in new colors for 2006, it is available in Jet White / Kawasaki Lime Green, and Jet White / Pearl Citrus Yellow. Available late 2005. Let the good times roll.™ Maybe it supports your thesis because they mention that the watercraft gives a thrilling and exciting ride? Still doesn't really sound too aggressive or like it's about blasting around without caring about anybody, in fact, this model is marketed towards athletic, dedicated stand-up riders (the few, the proud, not me!), who are probably the most responsible and knowledgeable pwc riders of all, in the sense that, like with sailboats, it takes a lot of practice and skills just to make one go in the first place. Here's what Honda brags about with their flagship mode, the F-12X GPScape: "its features continue to impress; 1235cc turbocharged four-stroke engine, off-throttle steering system, selectable speed limiter and electronic keyless ignition." Good reasons to give anybody you see driving one the finger or assume the worst of them. For their fastest and presumably most aggressively-oriented model, the turbo-powered smaller two-seather the R-12X this is what they have to say: "The sleek, specially-designed hull cuts through the water like a scalpel. The two work seamlessly together to provide the perfect blend of agility and stability. And since the R-12X is the world's only turbo four-stroke two-seater, you can share the fun." Sounds like they're really trying to appeal to on-water terrorists to me, agility and stability, share the fun. Really it still sounds to me like you're desperately trying to support and refuse to change all of your outdated preconceptions. You've cherry-picked a few brief quotes from some obviously outdated source, I've quoted almost the entire current marketing materials from the current web-site of ALL the pwc manufacturers in the market, and it sounds like there just MIGHT be a little truth to what I said in the first place, that they're marketing to families, to boaters, and emphasizing comfort, features, technology, family use, rather than sheer brute power and aggressive irresponsible riding. But you know a lot more about this subject than I do. Based on your observations. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Dave wrote: On 6 Apr 2006 13:28:02 -0700, said: Nothing about attitude or leaving anybody in any wake. Wonder why I'm not getting the same results you got? Dunno. I just grabbed parts of the result of a very quick Google search that led me to: http://www.hanksmarine.com/SeaDoo.htm Hmmm, guess we're both stumped, maybe it's because you just grabbed the first result you saw from your search without bothering to find out if the information was anywhere near current, that is, had anything to do with what we were talking about (the current, modern state of the industry and the market). Okay. Fair enough. Did the pretty exhaustive representative sampling from the current marketing materials (did you read them?), or any of the other information I've provided, make you think that maybe your statements or preconceptions could be a little out of date or inaccurate? About the way pwc's are marketed, why they're bought, who buys them, or how they're used these days? ...and about the machines themselves? Or are you still satisfied that pwc's are pretty much about hooligans, belching smelly smoke and doing doing circles around ramps pretty much just to annoy people? richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Maybe (pure poetry I'm sure), but "well spoke" is not very, uh, well
spoke. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
In article .com,
wrote: Well your source for information is obviously way out of date because SeaDoo hasn't made the GTX RFI in a few years. Here's Seadoo's marketing blurb for their current flagship model on the CURRENT web site: "Roughing it is relative on the GTX and GTX SC. Packed with two powerful engine options, luxury to spare and smooth maneuverability. A top-notch boat that takes riding to a new place. Like your favorite camping spot. Or a little island hopping." Here's their description of another model: "If the journey is the reward, you may never reach your destination. Thanks to the uncompromising luxury of the 2006 GTX Limited. With a 215 HP engine, 215 f*****g HORSEPOWER? For *ONE* or *TWO* people on a goddam toy? My 6.5 tonne workboat only has 2 225 HP turbo diesel engines driving Hamilton jets, and it'll do in excess of 40 knots unladen! Thanks for that, you've confirmed my opinion. Those damn things should be banned from all public waterways. Far too much HP for any rational purpose. PDW |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
On 6 Apr 2006 21:12:03 -0500, Dave wrote:
Just ask Rich. I'm sure that Rich is most likely as responsible as he says, but too bad about the blinders he's wearing. I'd guess he's probably in the business. |
New Jersey operator licensing
Wayne.B wrote: On 6 Apr 2006 10:29:45 -0700, wrote: Seems like a weak argument unless you can dispute any of my facts or sources. I can dispute your facts. This: We were out cruising last weekend and saw 4 PeeWCs. Two of them were weaving in and out of a crowded channel jumping wakes. The other two were pre teens circling a crowded anchorage while their parents enjoyed a few beers on the back deck of their rented houseboat. does not lead to or support this conclusion at all: Responsible operation is a VERY rare commodity with PeeWCs. (I know even you see that it's an unsupportable leap from two four irresponsible operators to responsible operation being "very rare.") ....however it does support the need for certification of all pwc operators (along with all power boaters) before they are legally allowed to operate a boat. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Doug's characterization of what? Sounds like you missed my sarcasm in
the line you quoted above. My point was that the "marketing materials" Dave cited to support his contention that pwc's are marketed to encourage aggressive, irresponsible riding, were pretty obviously poor references to site in that they referred to models not manufactured for several years. In contrast I provided an exhaustive, extensive reference of the marketing materials currently being used to promote pwc's by all of the major manufacturers. I quoted their advertisements pretty much in their entireity for almost all of the current models. I successfully demonstrated that the primary factors being advertised were family use, comfort, modern clean-running technology, storage space, mild recreational boating, and once again, unlike apparently anyone else in the conversation, I know about this from extensive personal experience with pwc's and the people who enjoy them. I've helped friends and other people make purchase decisions on pwc's and know who these people are and what kind of experience they are looking for - family recreation with their children, enjoyment of being on the water, going to lunch or the beach or fishing or just enjoying beautiful scenery - not reckless aggressive antics. In fact in a few cases, pwc'ers, real enthusiasts and activists in the sport, have been among some of the most experienced and knowledgeable boaters I"ve known. Look, one aspect of pwc's is that they're pretty easy to buy and get onto. There's a democratic aspect to them that does result in newbies not knowing much what they're doing. My first season out there, eight years ago now, I definitely flew too fast through some anchorages and no-wake zones and probably annoyed some fellow boaters due to my ignorance. I hadn't had any training or boating experience. My bad behavior was not due to any inherent character flaw, or some evil quality of the type of boat I was piloting, but to lack of knowledge and experience, and with guidance from more experienced riders that I started riding with, I quickly learned the ropes and what to do, and for the succeeding eight years you wouldn't have seen me do anything like that. Obviously the same is true for any rider or boater - given a little more time and experience and knowledge, they will learn more and their behavior habits will improve. Hopefully if you see a pwc'er or other boater operating recklessly or breaking rules, you would point it out to them in a non-antagonistic, non-attitudinous manner that would help them see the error of their ways rather than giving them the finger or deciding out of hand that all pwc'ers must be losers. That's why I know for sure that requiring training in the basics is a good idea and would help, already is helping in many states, minimizet his kind of behavior. A great percentage of the problems that occur involve renters of pwc's - and that type of user has been basically eliminated in a stroke in NYC by requiring the certification, the rental business has gone away, and we responsible, knowledgeable, experienced riders support that change and welcome it - it makes the waters safer, and will eventually help counteract the prejudice, stereotyping, and outdated notions so many people have formed about us in the past. You guys are all ganging up on me cruelly with more insults piled on, I don't know why it is so difficult to admit that you don't know much about the topic, that you are prejucided about it and uninterested in becoming more informed, or reconsidering your impressions in the light of newer information. I don't know who Jim Cate is or what you're talking about and I'm sorry if my posts aren't entertaining you sufficiently. But I bring up valid points and I have every right to make my case - that you are being unfairly insulting toward me and my family and friends when you say unfounded inflammatory things like "responsible pwc operation is very rare." ALL My friends and family engage in responsible boating with our pwc's every weekend, and so do dozens, hundreds, thousands of other people in waterways everywhere, in riding groups across the country exactly analogous to any other boating groups of people who enjoy recreation on the water and in the outdoors. PWC'ers often conduct massive charity rides and events, are involved in important rescue operations that couldn't be executed by any other kind of vessel. If you saw me and my friends on the water, you would know that the things you say simply aren't true about pwc'ers in general. We boat considerately, responsibly, safely, knowledgeably, and undergo challenging adventures (long distance explorations, cruises, multi-day trips) all the time. There are lots of bad apples but they don't represent all of us. I will not relent in telling you about it until you just admit that you're not experts, your experience is limited and not particularly well-informed beyond the range of your "observations," you don't personally know many or any pwc'ers and thus arent' informed of making blanket judgments or pronouncements about all of us, and that there is a great deal on this topic that you are not aware of. You are entitled to be unaware, but admit that you don't know much about it. You don't really know who generally buys and rides the things and how they use them, or how these things have evoloved over the last five to ten years from the way things used to be. I'm not sure why it's so important to keep insulting me personally, I don't deserve it, I'm just defending myself, my family, children and friends. If you guys had open minds or any intellectual curiosity at all you would take another look at this issue and realize that things are changing fast. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
It's directly what I"m talking about. That you don't seem willing to
simply admit that you really don't know very much about pwc's and the people who buy and ride them. You have opinions but they're not particularly well-informed. You have a right to be ill-informed but you ought to just admit that that's the case. You have your views, you formed them a long time ago, and you're sticking to them, no massive changes in the industry or the market are going to budge you, and any source that suggests that your impressions might not be accurate or up to date, is simply propoganda. That is exactly the topic under discussion as far as I'm concerned. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
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New Jersey operator licensing
Wayne.B wrote:
On 7 Apr 2006 06:18:35 -0700, wrote: This: We were out cruising last weekend and saw 4 PeeWCs. Two of them were weaving in and out of a crowded channel jumping wakes. The other two were pre teens circling a crowded anchorage while their parents enjoyed a few beers on the back deck of their rented houseboat. does not lead to or support this conclusion at all: Responsible operation is a VERY rare commodity with PeeWCs. (I know even you see that it's an unsupportable leap from two four irresponsible operators to responsible operation being "very rare.") 4 out of 4 is 100%, and that is just from one day last week. Yes but it's only a sampling of 4! So not very conclusive. If your observations don't include lots of well-behaved responsible boaters on pwc's, then there's some bias in your method or something skewed about the population you're drawing your observations from, because there are thousands of us out here! Honest. This stuff goes on all the time unfortunately, not exceptional by any means. PeeWCs operated by anyone under the age of 30 should be restricted to privately owned swimming pools where they can go in endless circles all they want, no license required. Over age 30, no restrictions as long as they have their mother in law on board and a blood alcohol level in minus numbers. LOL, well I appreciate the humor in these comments. (Swimming pools, endless circles!) And I kind of agree, I wouldn't say 30, but I'd support no drivers under 16 without certified adults on board with them, and I think that is the rule here in NYS. At any rate, past 16, if an aspiring boater had the initiative and good attitude to just take the basic training course (or just take the exam, if he already has some experience and knowledge under his belt from his childhood, which was not the case in my situation), then they just wouldn't be able to help knowing a lot more about right and wrong behavior, regulations and laws, right-of-way and signalling of intent and nav-aids and docking and anchoring and navigating, safety precautions and procedures; and just absorbing the good influence of the nice guys who run the Power Squadron course and the others in the class....anyone who did that is gonna be a better boater for it, and probably trustworthy to ride around outside the pool. If they haven't learned the basics and demonstrated that level of accountability and responsibility, then no I don't want them there either. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
I am a cruiser and have every right to post here and join in these
conversations. (I also participate in lots of forums maybe more populated by more likeminded fellow boaters and pwc enthusiasts, but in a way this is more engaging and challenging.) PWC's aren't toys by the way, that's one of the first things that these irresponsible operators who annoy all of us, have to learn first. They're boats - when they're treated and looked on as toys, that's when a lot of the problems start. And I'm not any kind of speed-obsessed freak if that's what you're implying, I've no interest in motorcycles, fast cars or especially fast pwc's (mine's fast enough to give a reasonably exhilirating ride but I don't have to be the leader of the pack and am not by a long shot; I'm not fueled by testosterone-gripped frenzy as you seem to imply, I am a mature, responsible, grown adult boater with a wife and children. See? I don't fit your stereotypes. But I am a fellow cruiser, reasonably knowledgeable and experienced, I have planned and executed many ambitious and challenging long-distance cruises on the water like I talked about before. Probably more so than most other pwc'ers but I'm hardly the only one doing it. I deal with the same issues as any other cruising boater, I have to know how to navigate my way where I'm going, plan fuel stops and be prepared for any kind of contingency that might arise, know how to use gps and vhf and read charts and avoid going aground or running afoul of law enforcement, keep my passengers safe and comfortable, etc. etc. I cruise out on the open ocean, next weekend I am planning a long ride from Jones Beach, NY to Barnegat Inlet (have done it before) and beyond for an overnight trip, busy making the plans and arrangements even now, it's a passion of mine just like it is for many of you. Anyway my interest in boat cruising is what takes me to rec.boats.cruising, thanks very much. Last summer I spent a week cruising with my wife all around the Thousand Islands area in the St. Lawrenece Waterway, we visited and took pictures of all the state parks, castles, and dozens of the beautiful islands and other attractions there from the water. I'll link you to the album of hundreds of pictures my wife took. We weren't breaking any speed records or causing any trouble, just happily coexisting with the thousands of other boating enthusiasts out there. One great trip was with three other friends, we launched in Ft. Lauderdale and rode to Key West and back over a week on our pwc's, stopping at a different on-water resort each night, living off our boats, enjoying the mangrove trails and snorkeling at Pennekamp State Park, stopping for lunch at restuurants, all our gas stops planned out carefully and our eyes trained to our handlebar-mounted gps' for navigation the whole time. I want to know if any of these even tinily budges some of you guys' preconceived notions about pwc users and usage. The greatest trip of all was a crossing to the Bahamas for a four-day riding vacation, six of us on pwc's (some had their wife and kids meet them there, although I was still a bachelor back then a few years ago) with more exploring, touring, snorkeling, no aggressive highspeed antics, just a beautiful open-ocean cruise I'll never forget, four days of beautiful experiences on the water, and a nicely harrowing stretch through a scary squall line on the way back, but we hung together and made it fine - an adventure I"ll never forget. "THis is a cruising newsgroup." That's why I came. I belong here, I am a full-fledged cruising boater just like anybody, and I just will not lie down and take any bullying, insulting or discriminatory comments, and I won't step to the back of the bus, sorry fellas. richforman |
New Jersey operator licensing
Peter Wiley wrote: In article .com, wrote: Well your source for information is obviously way out of date because SeaDoo hasn't made the GTX RFI in a few years. Here's Seadoo's marketing blurb for their current flagship model on the CURRENT web site: "Roughing it is relative on the GTX and GTX SC. Packed with two powerful engine options, luxury to spare and smooth maneuverability. A top-notch boat that takes riding to a new place. Like your favorite camping spot. Or a little island hopping." Here's their description of another model: "If the journey is the reward, you may never reach your destination. Thanks to the uncompromising luxury of the 2006 GTX Limited. With a 215 HP engine, 215 f*****g HORSEPOWER? For *ONE* or *TWO* people on a goddam toy? My 6.5 tonne workboat only has 2 225 HP turbo diesel engines driving Hamilton jets, and it'll do in excess of 40 knots unladen! Thanks for that, you've confirmed my opinion. Those damn things should be banned from all public waterways. Far too much HP for any rational purpose. Makes sense! Let's ban 'em all because PDW says it's too much horsepower! What is the cut-off for an acceptable level of power, and who will be the arbiter of what qualifies as a "rational purpose"? Well, PDW, of course! And again - very important - your analysis here fails on one very important point: we're talking about boats, not toys! It's when anybody thinks or treats pwc's as toys, I suspect, that most of the conflicts and problems arise! (Operating them without knowing what they're doing, etc.) richforman PDW |
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