Doug's characterization of what? Sounds like you missed my sarcasm in
the line you quoted above. My point was that the "marketing materials"
Dave cited to support his contention that pwc's are marketed to
encourage aggressive, irresponsible riding, were pretty obviously poor
references to site in that they referred to models not manufactured for
several years.

In contrast I provided an exhaustive, extensive reference of the
marketing materials currently being used to promote pwc's by all of the
major manufacturers. I quoted their advertisements pretty much in
their entireity for almost all of the current models. I successfully
demonstrated that the primary factors being advertised were family use,
comfort, modern clean-running technology, storage space, mild
recreational boating, and once again, unlike apparently anyone else in
the conversation, I know about this from extensive personal experience
with pwc's and the people who enjoy them. I've helped friends and
other people make purchase decisions on pwc's and know who these people
are and what kind of experience they are looking for - family
recreation with their children, enjoyment of being on the water, going
to lunch or the beach or fishing or just enjoying beautiful scenery -
not reckless aggressive antics. In fact in a few cases, pwc'ers, real
enthusiasts and activists in the sport, have been among some of the
most experienced and knowledgeable boaters I"ve known.

Look, one aspect of pwc's is that they're pretty easy to buy and get
onto. There's a democratic aspect to them that does result in newbies
not knowing much what they're doing. My first season out there, eight
years ago now, I definitely flew too fast through some anchorages and
no-wake zones and probably annoyed some fellow boaters due to my
ignorance. I hadn't had any training or boating experience. My bad
behavior was not due to any inherent character flaw, or some evil
quality of the type of boat I was piloting, but to lack of knowledge
and experience, and with guidance from more experienced riders that I
started riding with, I quickly learned the ropes and what to do, and
for the succeeding eight years you wouldn't have seen me do anything
like that. Obviously the same is true for any rider or boater - given
a little more time and experience and knowledge, they will learn more
and their behavior habits will improve. Hopefully if you see a pwc'er
or other boater operating recklessly or breaking rules, you would point
it out to them in a non-antagonistic, non-attitudinous manner that
would help them see the error of their ways rather than giving them the
finger or deciding out of hand that all pwc'ers must be losers. That's
why I know for sure that requiring training in the basics is a good
idea and would help, already is helping in many states, minimizet his
kind of behavior. A great percentage of the problems that occur
involve renters of pwc's - and that type of user has been basically
eliminated in a stroke in NYC by requiring the certification, the
rental business has gone away, and we responsible, knowledgeable,
experienced riders support that change and welcome it - it makes the
waters safer, and will eventually help counteract the prejudice,
stereotyping, and outdated notions so many people have formed about us
in the past.

You guys are all ganging up on me cruelly with more insults piled on, I
don't know why it is so difficult to admit that you don't know much
about the topic, that you are prejucided about it and uninterested in
becoming more informed, or reconsidering your impressions in the light
of newer information.

I don't know who Jim Cate is or what you're talking about and I'm sorry
if my posts aren't entertaining you sufficiently. But I bring up valid
points and I have every right to make my case - that you are being
unfairly insulting toward me and my family and friends when you say
unfounded inflammatory things like "responsible pwc operation is very
rare." ALL My friends and family engage in responsible boating with
our pwc's every weekend, and so do dozens, hundreds, thousands of
other people in waterways everywhere, in riding groups across the
country exactly analogous to any other boating groups of people who
enjoy recreation on the water and in the outdoors. PWC'ers often
conduct massive charity rides and events, are involved in important
rescue operations that couldn't be executed by any other kind of
vessel.

If you saw me and my friends on the water, you would know that the
things you say simply aren't true about pwc'ers in general. We boat
considerately, responsibly, safely, knowledgeably, and undergo
challenging adventures (long distance explorations, cruises, multi-day
trips) all the time. There are lots of bad apples but they don't
represent all of us. I will not relent in telling you about it until
you just admit that you're not experts, your experience is limited and
not particularly well-informed beyond the range of your
"observations," you don't personally know many or any pwc'ers and thus
arent' informed of making blanket judgments or pronouncements about all
of us, and that there is a great deal on this topic that you are not
aware of. You are entitled to be unaware, but admit that you don't
know much about it. You don't really know who generally buys and rides
the things and how they use them, or how these things have evoloved
over the last five to ten years from the way things used to be.

I'm not sure why it's so important to keep insulting me personally, I
don't deserve it, I'm just defending myself, my family, children and
friends. If you guys had open minds or any intellectual curiosity at
all you would take another look at this issue and realize that things
are changing fast.

richforman

wrote:
snip
Did you see "Stripes"?
"Lighten up Francis."

This is a "cruising" newsgroup. Perhaps your interest in highspeed toys
for the those with too many toys might be better satisfied in another forum.

I am a cruiser and have every right to post here and join in these
conversations. (I also participate in lots of forums maybe more
populated by more likeminded fellow boaters and pwc enthusiasts, but in
a way this is more engaging and challenging.) PWC's aren't toys by the
way, that's one of the first things that these irresponsible operators
who annoy all of us, have to learn first. They're boats - when they're
treated and looked on as toys, that's when a lot of the problems start.
And I'm not any kind of speed-obsessed freak if that's what you're
implying, I've no interest in motorcycles, fast cars or especially fast
pwc's (mine's fast enough to give a reasonably exhilirating ride but I
don't have to be the leader of the pack and am not by a long shot; I'm
not fueled by testosterone-gripped frenzy as you seem to imply, I am a
mature, responsible, grown adult boater with a wife and children. See?
I don't fit your stereotypes.

But I am a fellow cruiser, reasonably knowledgeable and experienced, I
have planned and executed many ambitious and challenging long-distance
cruises on the water like I talked about before. Probably more so than
most other pwc'ers but I'm hardly the only one doing it. I deal with
the same issues as any other cruising boater, I have to know how to
navigate my way where I'm going, plan fuel stops and be prepared for
any kind of contingency that might arise, know how to use gps and vhf
and read charts and avoid going aground or running afoul of law
enforcement, keep my passengers safe and comfortable, etc. etc. I
cruise out on the open ocean, next weekend I am planning a long ride
from Jones Beach, NY to Barnegat Inlet (have done it before) and beyond
for an overnight trip, busy making the plans and arrangements even now,
it's a passion of mine just like it is for many of you. Anyway my
interest in boat cruising is what takes me to rec.boats.cruising,
thanks very much. Last summer I spent a week cruising with my wife all
around the Thousand Islands area in the St. Lawrenece Waterway, we
visited and took pictures of all the state parks, castles, and dozens
of the beautiful islands and other attractions there from the water.
I'll link you to the album of hundreds of pictures my wife took. We
weren't breaking any speed records or causing any trouble, just happily
coexisting with the thousands of other boating enthusiasts out there.
One great trip was with three other friends, we launched in Ft.
Lauderdale and rode to Key West and back over a week on our pwc's,
stopping at a different on-water resort each night, living off our
boats, enjoying the mangrove trails and snorkeling at Pennekamp State
Park, stopping for lunch at restuurants, all our gas stops planned out
carefully and our eyes trained to our handlebar-mounted gps' for
navigation the whole time. I want to know if any of these even tinily
budges some of you guys' preconceived notions about pwc users and
usage. The greatest trip of all was a crossing to the Bahamas for a
four-day riding vacation, six of us on pwc's (some had their wife and
kids meet them there, although I was still a bachelor back then a few
years ago) with more exploring, touring, snorkeling, no aggressive
highspeed antics, just a beautiful open-ocean cruise I'll never forget,
four days of beautiful experiences on the water, and a nicely harrowing
stretch through a scary squall line on the way back, but we hung
together and made it fine - an adventure I"ll never forget. "THis is
a cruising newsgroup." That's why I came. I belong here, I am a
full-fledged cruising boater just like anybody, and I just will not lie
down and take any bullying, insulting or discriminatory comments, and I
won't step to the back of the bus, sorry fellas.

richforman

wrote:
I am a cruiser and have every right to post here and join in these
conversations.

Agreed.


.... PWC's aren't toys by the way

Yes they are.

But then IMHO these are also a toy
http://sic.epfl.ch/publications/SCR02/scr13_page4.jpg

But they are MUCH more expensive and require vastly more
skill to handle... still just toys after all.




.... Anyway my
interest in boat cruising is what takes me to rec.boats.cruising,
thanks very much. Last summer I spent a week cruising with my wife all
around the Thousand Islands area in the St. Lawrenece Waterway, we
visited and took pictures of all the state parks, castles, and dozens
of the beautiful islands and other attractions there from the water.
I'll link you to the album of hundreds of pictures my wife took.

OK, I'd like to see them. We have plans to visit the same
area. That sounds like a great cruise.

At one point in my life, I was going camper-cruising in
small racing class sailboats. Fun! Not very comfy but it
certainly built up sailing skills. It also gave a me a
preference for shallow draft boats that has stuck with me.

Size is only important to those who need it.


.... I belong here, I am a
full-fledged cruising boater just like anybody, and I just will not lie
down and take any bullying, insulting or discriminatory comments, and I
won't step to the back of the bus, sorry fellas.


It looks to me like you have been bullying others much more
than you've been bullied. I can see why you'd have a chip on
your shoulder about being a PWC'er but obnoxious behavior &
belittling others is not the way to give others a good
impression.

Fair Skies
Doug King

.... Anyway my
interest in boat cruising is what takes me to rec.boats.cruising,
thanks very much. Last summer I spent a week cruising with my wife all
around the Thousand Islands area in the St. Lawrenece Waterway, we
visited and took pictures of all the state parks, castles, and dozens
of the beautiful islands and other attractions there from the water.
I'll link you to the album of hundreds of pictures my wife took.

OK, I'd like to see them. We have plans to visit the same
area. That sounds like a great cruise.

It was one of the best times my wife and I ever had. Thanks, Doug.
Here's a link to my wife's many pictures from those rides:

http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=...2&x=1&y=2uaiye

....you have to join up with Kodak Easy share to view the photo album,
but it doesn't cost anything.

And thanks for the friendly, accepting, inclusive tone of your post,
for your interest in my cruising experience, and for belying the
charming PDW's statement that I have "zero support," whatever that
means exactly.

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:

I am a cruiser and have every right to post here and join in these
conversations.

You're not a cruiser by the definition in general acceptance here. You
have every right to post - this is usenet, after all - and in return we
have every right to deal with your posts as individuals deem
appropriate.

So far you've got zero support from anyone.

PDW

What's the definition? I don't get it. Frequent Long-distance tours
multi-day tours and destination rides on my little boat with everything
I need packed on board, planned and navigated on our waterways using
charts, cruising guides and gps, docking and staying at marinas
overnight, don't qualify as cruising? My Florida Keys, Bahamas,
Thousand Islands, Long-Island-to-Newport, trips get no respect or
appreciation at all from you, you think you're better than me somehow?
What kind of support do you think I require from you? Why do you
have to be so nasty, PDW? What have I ever done to you? Tell you
this, I've towed and helped out many fellow boaters in need of help on
the water (and been helped in kind when I needed it), they certainly
didn't have anything bad to say about me just because I was on a
personal watercraft, they respected and appreciated me as a fellow
boater and water-lover just like, as I've said, every fellow boater I
encounter on the water does every weekend. What is your problem
anyway?

richforman

prodigal1 wrote:

This is a "cruising" newsgroup. Perhaps your interest in highspeed toys
for the those with too many toys might be better satisfied in another forum.


Dear prodigal1:

I agree. Its the first time I read through this discussion completely
in a few days............ ugh.

Although I really enjoyed the "marketing materials." In my job right
now we call them emotional appeals. Use them to "get people to do what
you want" = persuasion.
In the marketing world I think they are called psychological needs. It
all originates form a guy called A. Maslow and his Hierarch of Needs
model. I identify a person's need, use the words that gets the guy
stiff and they poor sap will buy the Brooklyn bridge.

Or to quote some cheese movie, " I got a need for speed."

Just bought the Drogue Data Base book. Interesting read. Time to finish
it along with my morning coffee.

Rhetor Bob