On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:31:01 GMT, Gary wrote:

Check this website:

http://www.math.uio.no/~karstent/waves/index_en.html

While watching the ocean, those waves that are significantly bigger
than the rest are freaks. We know why.
========================================

Good reference, thanks for posting it.

Hi Gary:

I must disagree respectfully. To label a wave as a "freak or rogue" to
justify the deaths of your passengers suggests that a mariner is
helpless, can do nothing to avoid such conditions. The wave is such a
random act the operator is helpless. It is too easy to say, "the reason
why all my passengers died was because an unexplained wave came out of
nowhere" is simply irresponsible.

Gary says, "...It is because they are out of character with the other
waves around at a given time. They do exist and are well
documented...." So we agree that unusual waves do exist. So they are a
part of marine environment. If that is the case they are not freaks, or
rogues, they are simply an expected, and therefore predictable, wave
that may lie outside that second standard deviation.

An analogy may be the following: When a drunk gets into a car and kills
a bunch of people is it a preventable crash or an accident that just
happened? You know the line, " and then the car went out of control.
There was nothing I could do!" Well there was something I could
do............ Duhhh, do not drive while impaired.

Sure different sized waves are seen from satellites. That is my point.
They are out there. There are many reasons why they are there. But I
believe it is very dangerous and irresponsible to blame the wave. Why
should we make inadequate knowledge or poor judgment a justifiable
reason for killing people who are on our boat?

How about this one, "people kill people waves don't." Agree of
Disagree?
Bob

Back when I was involved with large sailing vessel stability and
accident analysis, I used to say something similar:

"Vessels with good stability get hit by squalls, vessels with poor
stability get hit by microbursts."

--

Roger Long

Sure different sized waves are seen from satellites. That is my point.
They are out there. There are many reasons why they are there. But I
believe it is very dangerous and irresponsible to blame the wave. Why
should we make inadequate knowledge or poor judgment a justifiable
reason for killing people who are on our boat?

i'm not trying to be difficult ... but, these sources being sighted, i
read more about these waves after seeing the references posted here and
they're saying these things are many times the height of the waves
around them and strike suddenly without any warning. they can occur in
relative calm, and they aren't that rare according to the radar study.
like you can be in a 5 meter sea and suddenly you're looking at a 30
meter wave. what could be considered adequate knowledge and good
judgement when faced with a 30 meter wave in a 5 meter sea ? it seems
like the only sure way to avoid the death of everyone on board is just
to stay at home and never be on the ocean in the first place. what
design considerations could you make in a 30 or 40 foot sailboat to
deal with a 30 meter wave ? it's just beyond anything we're prepared
for, and i am really interested in what you could possibly do to
prepare for it. 30 meters, that's like 90 feet high ... that's
GINORMOUS, i mean if you see a 30 meter wave on a 30 foot sailboat, you
might as well take a sip of champagne and wave to it cheerfully from
deck, cause your history.

On 31 Jan 2006 10:35:54 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:

if you see a 30 meter wave on a 30 foot sailboat, you
might as well take a sip of champagne and wave to it cheerfully from
deck, cause your history.

Probably true if the wave is breaking.

You could try assuming the nuclear attack position. That's where you
bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your butt
goodbye.

In all seriousness, if you are below with the hatches securely
battened down, you might get out of it. Without your mast of course,
but possibly alive and floating.

Hi Purple:

You say,

"these things are many times the height of the waves around them and
strike suddenly without any warning. they can occur in relative calm,
and they aren't that rare according to the radar study. "

I agree. That is why those very large waves are not rogues. Just
uncommon and most likely predictable. For example, I was sailing south
2 miles off WA coast one summer. Yes, a bit too close for that area.
The weather was typical: NW 15-25K 10'-12' swell, a few breaking. After
checking the weather I also knew there was a bit of a hurricane way
south last week. Humm... might send some big swell our way. Sure enough
as I was having a great time surfing south about every 10 minutes a big
one came out of the SW. No problem until the NW swell happened to get
in sink with the SW swell in a shallow area. Gads! What a view from the
top! In a moment I was sliding down the face of an incredible wave. The
only thing problem, it was three boat lengths to the bottom of the wave
(39' x 3 lengths = 117'). Cool ride to the bottom? Or a freak wave
that nearly killed me? You be the judge.

Yea, I realize that the wave height was not 117' because my slid down
the face was actually the hypotenuse. But still very exciting. So was
that a killer rogue wave out of nowhere that struck suddenly without
any warning? Or just a known possibility the operator considered and
took steps to ameliorate an inevitable event?

Read, watch the ocean, talk to the USCG, read, watch the ocean, talk to
OLD commercial fisherman and enjoy the wonders that nature offers.
There is no such thing as a rogue or sneaker wave.
Bob

"Bob" wrote

There is no such thing as a rogue or sneaker wave.

Sure there is. They're the big ones that come along infrequently but
more often than people realize. You are making much to much out of
semantics here. They are not supernatural but rare enough to deserve
a special name.

--

Roger Long

Hi Roger:

I think you are right.......... maybe too much spare time on my hands
and too much coffee this week. Thus the rant.
But my gut feeling is that too many people still blame sea conditions
when they should accept responisbity for killing pasangers. I think the
two charterboat operators i described ealier are examples of peole who
broke all the ruls, did not listen to the USCG and then blamed a wave.

Gotta go,
Bob.

Yes, they broke the rule and then got hit by the wave the rule was
intended to protect them from. Sort of like pushing someone out of an
airplane and then claiming it was the ground that killed them.

--

Roger Long



"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi Roger:

I think you are right.......... maybe too much spare time on my
hands
and too much coffee this week. Thus the rant.
But my gut feeling is that too many people still blame sea
conditions
when they should accept responisbity for killing pasangers. I think
the
two charterboat operators i described ealier are examples of peole
who
broke all the ruls, did not listen to the USCG and then blamed a
wave.

Gotta go,
Bob.

Read, watch the ocean, talk to the USCG, read, watch the ocean, talk to
OLD commercial fisherman and enjoy the wonders that nature offers.
There is no such thing as a rogue or sneaker wave.
Bob


Hmmmmmm......

Pitch black night, moderate seas, all of a sudden WHAM..... and you could
predict this how?

Pea soup fog, moderate seas, all of a sudden WHAM....... and you could
predict this how?

Sorry Bob, but "rogue and sneaker waves" exist. I could go on with many
scenarios.
Now, I'm not one for accepting excuses when someone screws up, but in my
meager experience, bad waves sneak up on you and rogues do exist.

otn