In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:

it just
seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is
filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean.

Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things
may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you
off the boat at that point.


And, if you don't comply, they can open fire? :-)



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Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:

it just
seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is
filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean.

Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things
may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you
off the boat at that point.


And, if you don't comply, they can open fire? :-)


To be somewhat serious about this, I doubt they can order you
off. They can strongly suggest it, along with outlining the
consequences, such as revocation of your license, and them not
planning on returning. I believe that's what happened with the Satori
(Perfect Storm) rescue.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Mys Terry wrote:

bs deleted

Stop stalking me Comode.


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Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Mys Terry wrote:
On 26 Jan 2006 15:49:58 -0800, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Mys Terry wrote:

bs deleted

Stop stalking me Comode.

You are over the top. Check yourself in for treatment. I don't think outpatient
care will cut it any longer.

This from a sockpuppet. No problem. PLONK




--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Wayne.B wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:


it just
seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is
filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean.


Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things
may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you
off the boat at that point.

I'm not sure they can "order" you off, but once you've set off the
EPIRB and/or requested a rescue, its pretty hard, if not negligent, to
refuse after the crew has risked their lives (and possibly jeopardized
others) getting to you.

On the other hand, when you trip the EPIRB, you're making a guess that
at some point in the future, perhaps several hours, thing will be so
bad that you'll need to get off in a hurry. Perhaps you have severe
structural damage, and you know the boat will sink if it gets any
worse. I don't think I'd want to spend a night 100 miles offshore in
that situation.

So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at
what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at
50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into
the liferaft?

I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago
at the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they
spent 8 hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going
to die. The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength.
Shortly thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then
[after the storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is
that nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's
fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence.
Fortunately, they don't do long passages.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:40:58 -0500, Jeff wrote:

So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at
what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at
50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into
the liferaft?

My boat?

1. After I'm in the liferaft and the big boat sinks or is clearly
about to;

2. Someone has become seriously injured.

Easy to say here in the comfort of my home...

Refusing to follow an order from the coast guard is a felony for those
who are inclined to go that way.

Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

On the other hand, when you trip the EPIRB, you're making a guess that
at some point in the future, perhaps several hours, thing will be so
bad that you'll need to get off in a hurry. Perhaps you have severe
structural damage, and you know the boat will sink if it gets any
worse. I don't think I'd want to spend a night 100 miles offshore in
that situation.

So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at what
point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at 50%
risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into the
liferaft?

I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago at
the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they spent 8
hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going to die.
The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength. Shortly
thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then [after the
storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is that
nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's fair to
ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence.
Fortunately, they don't do long passages.


Tripping the EPIRB is the electronic Mayday. Not leaving the boat would
mean that you called a false emergency and that is a crime.

Not having an EPIRB when offshore because "they don't think it's fair to
ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence" is silly.
Once you are noted as missing the authorities will come looking. The
EPIRB just saves them time and money.

We ran into that situation recently in the Van-Ilse 360 race. All boats
now require an EPIRB since a multihull flipped offshore (2001) and the
crew spent a miserable 24 hours or so before they were noted as overdue,
by then the search zone was enormous. An EPIRB would have got help much
sooner and made the search shorter and cheaper. With the money saved
the Coast Guard could have paid for everyone in the race to have an EPIRB.

On another point, all boats in that race are now required to also carry
a handheld VHF in a ditch bag reachable when the boat is upside down so
they can also call for help when the fitted VHF is underwater.

Gaz

A very long time ago I spent a tour of duty in the USCG, aviation unit,
as a radio man. We would fly searches looking for boats. It is
incrediby difficult to see anything down on the water. As I reacall we
would change watch standers every 15 minutes. But even so, as a watch
stander you tire quickely and you mind wanders. You find yourself
daydreaming and not paying attention. Or when you do see something it
is a 300 foot freighter and you realize that you would have never picked
up on a 30 foot sailboat.

Radar? Forget it. It may work, it may not. A small boat does not
present much of a target, especially when you have any kind of chop.

A VHF is great so they can DF in on it. An EPIRB is great, but they
don't always work. And the Coast Guard is NOT in the salvage business.

I rember once we found a guy that fell off a freighter during the night
watch. Everyone at the base was astounded.

Hopefully things have improved in the ensuing decades but I doubt it. I
recently read of a couple of kids swept out to sea in a small sailboat
who were given up for dead and then, by chance, found by a fisherman.
And that was an easy search. The CG had multiple airbourn resources out,
and boats, and there were young lives at stake.

So is it difficult to find a 32' boat 50 miles offshore? Damn straight!

Howard

wrote:
wrote:

I'm waiting to hear if Eclipse is still going to be upright
when she's recovered.


Hasn't it already been about a week or more ?

Is it difficult to find a 32' boat about 50 miles offshore ?

Perhaps we should have a service using satellite cameras and
computer programs to find lost boats (and people) in the ocean.

In article , Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
I'm not sure they can "order" you off, but once you've set off the
EPIRB and/or requested a rescue, its pretty hard, if not negligent, to
refuse after the crew has risked their lives (and possibly jeopardized
others) getting to you.

I couldn't find anything that says you are required to get off the
boat. But, I'm sure the pressure would be significant. On the other
hand, ultimately, the skipper is in charge of the vessel.

So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at
what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at
50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into
the liferaft?

Good question. I wish it were possible to do it accurately. Many
people would go for the 50/50.. others would think a 5% chance is time
to leave. This is a pretty typical decision problem we all go through
from time to time. Is it safe to fly after 9/11? vs. driving across
the country? There are lots of studies that suggest we're not very
good at making these decisions based on the facts.

I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago
at the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they
spent 8 hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going
to die. The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength.
Shortly thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then
[after the storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is
that nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's
fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence.

Well, if I were going off shore, I'd want one.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:
Refusing to follow an order from the coast guard is a felony for those
who are inclined to go that way.

I'm not sure this is correct in all situations. It might also not be
enforceable. What are they actually going to do to you? Say you're 500
miles off, there is high wind and big waves, the epirb is activated
(how about by mistake?), the CG shows up, and you say, no, it was a
mistake. Everyone is fine (of even better, you're single handing and
you're fine). Are they going to stay on station until the weather gets
better then arrest you on the high seas? What if you're not a US
citizen? Are they going to follow you to port or attempt to board you?

I know of at least one situation with a fishing boat out here where
they asked to board for an inspection. The guy had apparently been
boarded many times. He told them to screw off. Finally, they backed
down and left him alone.




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Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com