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#21
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article ,
Wayne.B wrote: On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars" wrote: it just seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean. Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you off the boat at that point. And, if you don't comply, they can open fire? :-) -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
#22
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article ,
Jonathan Ganz wrote: In article , Wayne.B wrote: On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars" wrote: it just seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean. Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you off the boat at that point. And, if you don't comply, they can open fire? :-) To be somewhat serious about this, I doubt they can order you off. They can strongly suggest it, along with outlining the consequences, such as revocation of your license, and them not planning on returning. I believe that's what happened with the Satori (Perfect Storm) rescue. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
#23
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
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#24
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article ,
Mys Terry wrote: On 26 Jan 2006 15:49:58 -0800, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote: In article , Mys Terry wrote: bs deleted Stop stalking me Comode. You are over the top. Check yourself in for treatment. I don't think outpatient care will cut it any longer. This from a sockpuppet. No problem. PLONK -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
#25
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Wayne.B wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 23:06:04 -0800, "purple_stars" wrote: it just seems like the only reason you "have to" abandon ship is the thing is filling up with water and is headed for the bottom of the ocean. Once you trip off the EPIRB and the rescue helicopter shows up things may be out of your hands. As I understand it, they can "order" you off the boat at that point. I'm not sure they can "order" you off, but once you've set off the EPIRB and/or requested a rescue, its pretty hard, if not negligent, to refuse after the crew has risked their lives (and possibly jeopardized others) getting to you. On the other hand, when you trip the EPIRB, you're making a guess that at some point in the future, perhaps several hours, thing will be so bad that you'll need to get off in a hurry. Perhaps you have severe structural damage, and you know the boat will sink if it gets any worse. I don't think I'd want to spend a night 100 miles offshore in that situation. So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at 50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into the liferaft? I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago at the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they spent 8 hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going to die. The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength. Shortly thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then [after the storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is that nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence. Fortunately, they don't do long passages. |
#26
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:40:58 -0500, Jeff wrote:
So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at 50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into the liferaft? My boat? 1. After I'm in the liferaft and the big boat sinks or is clearly about to; 2. Someone has become seriously injured. Easy to say here in the comfort of my home... Refusing to follow an order from the coast guard is a felony for those who are inclined to go that way. |
#27
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote: On the other hand, when you trip the EPIRB, you're making a guess that at some point in the future, perhaps several hours, thing will be so bad that you'll need to get off in a hurry. Perhaps you have severe structural damage, and you know the boat will sink if it gets any worse. I don't think I'd want to spend a night 100 miles offshore in that situation. So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at 50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into the liferaft? I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago at the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they spent 8 hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going to die. The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength. Shortly thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then [after the storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is that nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence. Fortunately, they don't do long passages. Tripping the EPIRB is the electronic Mayday. Not leaving the boat would mean that you called a false emergency and that is a crime. Not having an EPIRB when offshore because "they don't think it's fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence" is silly. Once you are noted as missing the authorities will come looking. The EPIRB just saves them time and money. We ran into that situation recently in the Van-Ilse 360 race. All boats now require an EPIRB since a multihull flipped offshore (2001) and the crew spent a miserable 24 hours or so before they were noted as overdue, by then the search zone was enormous. An EPIRB would have got help much sooner and made the search shorter and cheaper. With the money saved the Coast Guard could have paid for everyone in the race to have an EPIRB. On another point, all boats in that race are now required to also carry a handheld VHF in a ditch bag reachable when the boat is upside down so they can also call for help when the fitted VHF is underwater. Gaz |
#28
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
A very long time ago I spent a tour of duty in the USCG, aviation unit,
as a radio man. We would fly searches looking for boats. It is incrediby difficult to see anything down on the water. As I reacall we would change watch standers every 15 minutes. But even so, as a watch stander you tire quickely and you mind wanders. You find yourself daydreaming and not paying attention. Or when you do see something it is a 300 foot freighter and you realize that you would have never picked up on a 30 foot sailboat. Radar? Forget it. It may work, it may not. A small boat does not present much of a target, especially when you have any kind of chop. A VHF is great so they can DF in on it. An EPIRB is great, but they don't always work. And the Coast Guard is NOT in the salvage business. I rember once we found a guy that fell off a freighter during the night watch. Everyone at the base was astounded. Hopefully things have improved in the ensuing decades but I doubt it. I recently read of a couple of kids swept out to sea in a small sailboat who were given up for dead and then, by chance, found by a fisherman. And that was an easy search. The CG had multiple airbourn resources out, and boats, and there were young lives at stake. So is it difficult to find a 32' boat 50 miles offshore? Damn straight! Howard wrote: wrote: I'm waiting to hear if Eclipse is still going to be upright when she's recovered. Hasn't it already been about a week or more ? Is it difficult to find a 32' boat about 50 miles offshore ? Perhaps we should have a service using satellite cameras and computer programs to find lost boats (and people) in the ocean. |
#29
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article , Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote: I'm not sure they can "order" you off, but once you've set off the EPIRB and/or requested a rescue, its pretty hard, if not negligent, to refuse after the crew has risked their lives (and possibly jeopardized others) getting to you. I couldn't find anything that says you are required to get off the boat. But, I'm sure the pressure would be significant. On the other hand, ultimately, the skipper is in charge of the vessel. So this brings up the question, if you could quantify the risk, at what point would you say, "please send a chopper"? Would you do it at 50% risk? 10%? 90%? Or should you wait until you're stepping into the liferaft? Good question. I wish it were possible to do it accurately. Many people would go for the 50/50.. others would think a 5% chance is time to leave. This is a pretty typical decision problem we all go through from time to time. Is it safe to fly after 9/11? vs. driving across the country? There are lots of studies that suggest we're not very good at making these decisions based on the facts. I have old cruising friends who spent a horrible night many years ago at the hands of a hurricane - I won't tell the story now, but they spent 8 hours struggling to save the boat, convinced they were going to die. The next day they just drifted, recovering their strength. Shortly thereafter, they said "If a helicopter appeared overhead then [after the storm], we would have taken the ride." The funny thing is that nowadays they don't carry an EPIRB because they don't think it's fair to ask someone to risk their life because of their incompetence. Well, if I were going off shore, I'd want one. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
#30
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article ,
Wayne.B wrote: Refusing to follow an order from the coast guard is a felony for those who are inclined to go that way. I'm not sure this is correct in all situations. It might also not be enforceable. What are they actually going to do to you? Say you're 500 miles off, there is high wind and big waves, the epirb is activated (how about by mistake?), the CG shows up, and you say, no, it was a mistake. Everyone is fine (of even better, you're single handing and you're fine). Are they going to stay on station until the weather gets better then arrest you on the high seas? What if you're not a US citizen? Are they going to follow you to port or attempt to board you? I know of at least one situation with a fishing boat out here where they asked to board for an inspection. The guy had apparently been boarded many times. He told them to screw off. Finally, they backed down and left him alone. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
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